IT: Diffuse: Can you be crippled and dismembered? (This may need errata)

[NineDaysDead]

Page 60, under IT: Diffuse “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”
Page 400, under Injury Tolerance and Hit location: Diffuse and Homogeneous “(Eyes and limbs can still be crippled)”

So which is it?

And what about dismemberment? Can Diffuse beings be dismembered?

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Page 60, under IT: Diffuse “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”
Page 400, under Injury Tolerance and Hit location: Diffuse and Homogeneous “(Eyes and limbs can still be crippled)”

So which is it?

And what about dismemberment? Can Diffuse beings be dismembered?

Good question, that doesn't look resolvable by a literal reading of the rules. You'll probably need to check with Kromm to be certain. I'd guess that the p60 text is in error, since Diffuse in not mentioned (there, nor in Powers) as having any of the benefits of the types of IT that would provide immunity from crippling. With the damage reduction it does grant, characters will be much harder to cripple though. If that is right, then dismemberment would be unlikely also, though not impossible.

[Gollum]

About dismemberment, it depends on the creature, and the common sense can easily answer to this question.

Homogeneous includes statues and blobs, for instance (see page 380). A statue can be dismemberd but a blob can't (he has no limb).

Diffuse includes swarms, air elementals, nets... (page 380, again). All these creature can't be dismemberd. They have no limb.

As you can see, the answer is easy: if your creature has limbs, it can be dimembered. If it has not, it can't.

[hjo3]

Originally Posted by Gollum

About dismemberment, it depends on the creature, and the common sense can easily answer to this question.

Homogeneous includes statues and blobs, for instance (see page 380). A statue can be dismemberd but a blob can't (he has no limb).

Were that the case, the blob would have a free advantage. That would need to be accounted for.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by hjo3

Were that the case, the blob would have a free advantage. That would need to be accounted for.

No. Since nobody can't dismember you, having no limb can be seen as an advantage... but it is a huge disadvantage (no leg, no arm, no fine manipulator, etc.). Hard to swing a sword, open a door, use a computer, climb a tree or even a ladder...

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Gollum

No. Since nobody can't dismember you, having no limb can be seen as an advantage... but it is a huge disadvantage (no leg, no arm, no fine manipulator, etc.). Hard to swing a sword, open a door, use a computer, climb a tree or even a ladder...

This is all true, but it has nothing to do with the question at hand. Not being able to be crippled because you have no limbs equally applies to homogenous rocks, unliving computers and regular people with quadriplegic. The question here is “Does IT: Diffuse make you immune to crippling and dismemberment even if you have limbs?” The question is being asked because the evidence is contradictory.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by Gollum

About dismemberment, it depends on the creature, and the common sense can easily answer to this question.

Homogeneous includes statues and blobs, for instance (see page 380). A statue can be dismemberd but a blob can't (he has no limb).

Diffuse includes swarms, air elementals, nets... (page 380, again). All these creature can't be dismemberd. They have no limb.

I’m looking at the “body of air” meta-trait now and I can’t see anything suggesting it doesn’t have any arms (no legs: yes), and there’s nothing suggesting that the “body of fire” “body of water” meta-traits lacks any limbs at all, likewise the skull-spirit template make no mention of missing limbs. Yet they all have IT: Diffuse which states “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”

Originally Posted by Gollum

As you can see, the answer is easy: if your creature has limbs, it can be dimembered. If it has not, it can't.

It’s true that “if your creature has limbs, it can be dismembered. If it has not, it can't”, but unfortunately that has nothing to do with the question I asked. There’s evidence that suggests even if you have limbs, you still can’t be crippled if you have IT: Diffuse, but there is contradicting evidence.

[Mgellis]

It would be based, I think, on the advantages and disadvantages that the diffuse being has.

If a diffuse being has manipulators (the default state of existence), they could be targeted and injured, so that creature could be crippled; if a being has no manipulators, it would have No Fine Manipulators or some similar disadvantage. (In fact, this is the case with air elementals.)

Same thing with legs. The default state of existence is that a creature has legs (or psuedopods used for moving or whatever) . They can be targeted and injured. If a creature does not have legs, this should be listed. In the case of air elementals, where they have no legs, but are aerial, I suppose they get the "freebie" (0-point feature) of not being vulnerable to attacks that would limit movement (instead, you would simply have to do enough damage to them that they'll be at half movement).

The issue of "dismemberment" is misleading. What matters is whether or not the limb is permanently crippled (i.e., you roll a critical failure after the limb takes crippling damage). If the limb is permanently crippled, the GM can decide whether the limb is rendered useless or if it is gone, depending on what would be appropriate. See pp. 422-423 for details.

I hope this helps.

Mark

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Page 60, under IT: Diffuse “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”
Page 400, under Injury Tolerance and Hit location: Diffuse and Homogeneous “(Eyes and limbs can still be crippled)”

So which is it?

And what about dismemberment? Can Diffuse beings be dismembered?

[NineDaysDead]

You’re not the first person to make this argument…

Originally Posted by Mgellis

It would be based, I think, on the advantages and disadvantages that the diffuse being has.

If a diffuse being has manipulators (the default state of existence), they could be targeted and injured, so that creature could be crippled; if a being has no manipulators, it would have No Fine Manipulators or some similar disadvantage. (In fact, this is the case with air elementals.)

Same thing with legs. The default state of existence is that a creature has legs (or psuedopods used for moving or whatever) . They can be targeted and injured. If a creature does not have legs, this should be listed. In the case of air elementals, where they have no legs, but are aerial, I suppose they get the "freebie" (0-point feature) of not being vulnerable to attacks that would limit movement (instead, you would simply have to do enough damage to them that they'll be at half movement).

But this has nothing to do with IT: Diffuse, it applies to all characters regardless of their level of injury tolerance. You’re not addressing the fact that IT: Diffuse is special, it says “This makes you immune to crippling injuries”. If it didn’t then say “(Eyes and limbs can still be crippled)” on page 400, there would be no debate.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

The issue of "dismemberment" is misleading. What matters is whether or not the limb is permanently crippled (i.e., you roll a critical failure after the limb takes crippling damage).

No,

1. Dismemberment is automatically permanent (barring stuff like regrowth) but Crippling is only permanent on a critical failure.
2. It’s easier to repair permanent crippling injuries than dismemberment:

Healing can repair permanent crippling but not dismemberment.
The spells that repair permanent crippling are earlier on the tree, cost less and have lower magery requirements than their regeneration counterparts.
The surgery rules suggest that permanent crippling can be somewhat fixed at TL7-8.
Unkillable 1 seems to repair permanent crippling but not dismemberment.

There’s a big difference between permanent Crippled and Dismemberment.

Originally Posted by Mgellis

If the limb is permanently crippled, the GM can decide whether the limb is rendered useless or if it is gone, depending on what would be appropriate. See pp. 422-423 for details.

If. Dismemberment is automatic; The GM decides only on a permanent Crippling injury which only happens on a critical failure.

Another difference is, if IT: Diffuse makes you immune to crippling; it might still be possible to be dismembered.

[Gollum]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

I’m looking at the “body of air” meta-trait now and I can’t see anything suggesting it doesn’t have any arms (no legs: yes), and there’s nothing suggesting that the “body of fire” “body of water” meta-traits lacks any limbs at all, likewise the skull-spirit template make no mention of missing limbs. Yet they all have IT: Diffuse which states “This makes you immune to crippling injuries” It’s true that “if your creature has limbs, it can be dismembered. If it has not, it can't”, but unfortunately that has nothing to do with the question I asked. There’s evidence that suggests even if you have limbs, you still can’t be crippled if you have IT: Diffuse, but there is contradicting evidence.

Sorry. I didn't understand your question very well. Now I do understand it better.

I fully agree with Mgellis. And I add this:

Page 380, Injury Diffuse Targets

"Impaling and piercing attacks (of any size) never do more than 1 HP of injury, regardless of penetrating damage! Other attacks can never do more than 2 HP of injury."

So, if the creature has 2 HPs or more, it is impossible to dismember it, and if the creature has 3 HPs or more, it is even impossible to cripple one of its limb.

And this makes sense: its hard to cut air, fire or watter with a sword!

Only an area effect weapon can "destroy" a "limb" of such a creature.