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Old 04-19-2024, 07:12 PM   #11
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Applied Magic: Armoury

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
This is basically in the rules text where it says that an Architecture roll may be necessary for something Shaped to remain standing after the Spell is no longer Maintained.
Good catch. In general, requiring mundane skill rolls to properly use magic spells to make or repair mundane items is a speed bump on the way to play balancing the more abusive applications of "Shape" and Making and Breaking College spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I probably wouldn't be as generous as you . . .
I wouldn't be as generous as me if a player came up with the same ideas for Shape Metal. The wording of the spell is deliberately very simple for reasons of page count and editorial/game designer opinion, which allows wide latitude for GM interpretation but also wide latitude for player Fast-Talk (GM) and Law (Rules) skill rolls.

I'd consider Techniques based off of Armoury skill or the Shape Metal spell to be fair, however, particularly if they were limited by the lower of the two skills.

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
Also, if you Shape solid wire into a loop I think you might only have butted mail instead of rivetless links.
Again, subject to GM interpretation.

Rather than butted links made automatically from a spool of wire, however, it would be almost as easy to have the metal shape itself into a sheet of the proper thickness, give it the consistency of clay and then use a metal punch to pop out solid rings without the need for hammering and no tool wear.

You could also use the same trick to quickly form open links for riveting and then quickly set the rivets by just pressing on them with your fingers.

Those methods might not be as fast as just linking solid rings, but they'd still result in a huge time savings compared to having to use mundane methods of mail creation.
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Old 04-19-2024, 07:56 PM   #12
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Applied Magic: Armoury

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Originally Posted by RGTraynor View Post

But I'm not sold at all on it having more DR. That's talking Shape adding what, 20% to its protective value? I just don't see that.
<shryg> You can get +1 Dr for using Hardened Steel instead of bloomery iron. Using molten "crucible" Steel basically starts with that.

The +1 I was talking about would have been for removing a potential weak spot. Dan says most failed links are away from the rivets but I wonder if links that did get failed rivets also got recycled with new ones disproportionately. Maybe most failed Armoury rolls on the riveting produced obvious failures..
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Old 04-19-2024, 11:08 PM   #13
DanHoward
 
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Default Re: Applied Magic: Armoury

One use for failed links would be to straighten them out and use them as nails. A patch of worn or dodgy links would be used as a pot scourer.
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Old 04-20-2024, 08:48 PM   #14
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Applied Magic: Armoury

Implications MAM or Magic Assisted Metalworking:

Using an item with Heat with Power 2 enchantments, you have a staff capable of melting up to 1 cubic yard of materials, or a fist sized material that will heat twice as quickly. If the magical staff/rod/jewelry is at power 20, it can be used in low mana regions taking twice as long to heat, or it can be used in mana high/very high regions at half the time to heat.

So, what are the implications of using a fist sized amount of iron or steel? If one utilizes a stone form to to create "rings", simply pouring a crucible filled with molten metal - assisted by shape metal - permits a mage to form a fair number of rings quickly and easily. The formula for time to melt a fist sized bit of metal is 2800-room temperature all divided by 20, or 140 - room temperature/20. But wait, if you apply double the energy, the time is halved - and since the "Item" is powered to a Power of 2, this is indeed possible and thus, is halved in time.

So, pour a fist sized lump of crucible steel into the form, let it cool down naturally. Keep making all of these "formed" rings as necessary, and at the very least, you've halved the time required to form the steel rings that would take time. Knitting the rings to mail would still take time of course.

Now, use the same concept with making fine wire so to speak.

How to make forms: Using Shape Stone, one can use real world objects as a "form item" much like one would use sand to create a form in the real world.

Now - my question is - if metalurgists using MAM techniques were to engage in this level of activity, would steel have come into being? The carbon content of beating iron into shape as a step, would not have occurred using this approach. On the flip side - alloy creation could be better controlled using MAM simply by having two metals melt into each other, and SHAPE METAL be utilized to stir them together as a means of mixing them. The precision of controlling a fist sized lump of metal by weight added to another metal by weight allows those metalurgists to discover what ratios of alloyed metals work best.

One can create metals with the thinnest of diameters using this technique of combined melting of metals and shaping of metals, which in turn, could result in some pretty beautiful pieces of metal worked jewelry.

Now I confess - I was tempted to try a 3D style of form creation in which an entire shirt of mail could be formed using a cubic yard of metal - such as using a create object spell - and then using shape stone to flow around the mail shirt, and then letting go of said created item so that it disappears. The problem with this approach is that the metal has assumed a shape where the interlocking rings are all connected to each other by reason of the initial pour. On the other hand, if one can use SHAPE METAL to separate these links - or better yet, a magic item that is powered so that it can be handled as needed for as long as necessary - well, you've got the ability to play around with MAM.
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Old 04-20-2024, 09:10 PM   #15
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Default Re: Applied Magic: Armoury

Iron that had been melted and cast from a mold would be way too brittle for weapons and armour. Forging is necessary.

This explains the difference.
https://www.milwaukeeforge.com/forge...he-difference/

Edit: I remember buying a steel geologist's pick from a hardware store to use in the garden. After about half an hour of use, the head broke in half at the socket. Looking at the crystalline structure of the broken metal, it was obvious that it had been cast and not forged like these tools are supposed to be. I was very lucky that it simply broke and didn't shatter.
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Last edited by DanHoward; 04-20-2024 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 04-21-2024, 01:40 AM   #16
hal
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Buffalo, New York
Default Re: Applied Magic: Armoury

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanHoward View Post
Iron that had been melted and cast from a mold would be way too brittle for weapons and armour. Forging is necessary.

This explains the difference.
https://www.milwaukeeforge.com/forge...he-difference/

Edit: I remember buying a steel geologist's pick from a hardware store to use in the garden. After about half an hour of use, the head broke in half at the socket. Looking at the crystalline structure of the broken metal, it was obvious that it had been cast and not forged like these tools are supposed to be. I was very lucky that it simply broke and didn't shatter.
Agreed - but what is lacking in this - is heat quenching and other fun stuff. Hypothetically speaking, what would be the result of the use of HEAT applied to the surface of Iron via external means, and heat applied to mold poured iron? Could for instance, one use heated Oil raised to a given temperature, or any other substance for example - applied ONLY to the surface of iron itself? What of Heating the object after it is poured, but then applying water around it with the spell COOL attached to it?

I used to work with Heat Induction coils, and yes - you can tell what the crystalline latticework looks like with your naked eye. You can tell the color difference in the metal along with discerning the boundary between heat treated metal and untreated metal.

In short, the hard part is working the metals - and having the correct carbon content for steel may well not be discovered with MAM. On the flip side, what kind of Alloy work might have been discovered sooner? Iron/Nickel alloys would be easily enough accomplished. Both individual metals are under the temperature of 2800 limit for the HEAT spell.

Ultimately? One advance that can occur with metal working is the ability to work in a low oxygen environment due to the heat spell. Just for working Iron high in sulfur content alone, this would be a boon. If you have a metalsmith working with a mage using the HEAT magic item - the two combined can advance metallurgy through experimentation over time.

So, no, I don't think it stops with simple "pouring" - but I do suspect that if you can create crucible steel, and melt it right off the bat into a form, that's half the battle. If you can shape metal after crucible steal is created - you can shape it without the need of heat or molds (depending again on how fine a control the GM permits the spell itself).
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