Grappling and Concentrate (or other forbidden maneuvers)

[Yako]

Originally Posted by McAllister

I would use TG and introduce All-Out Concentrate with a bonus of, pick one:
+ HT (or maybe ST or even Will again)
+ 10
+ Opponent's Trained ST (to cancel out the penalty)

That way, you can throw everything into a Concentrate that's reasonably likely to succeed, but if you fail (or whatever you did with Concentrate didn't end the fight), you're probably in for a righteous pummeling.

I read the discussion in the above quoted thread and since I had been struggling with dissatisfaction aimed at the "no concentrating in a grapple" rule, I thought it might be worth making this a new topic (and if I forgot about previous ones, please do excuse me and be so kind to link them... ^^ ; ).

I personally do find the hard limit straining credibility and I think it is too much of a hard counter for mages and similar characters, so discussing ways to handle it less strictly would be in my interest, especially since i also do not really enjoy technical grappling enough to switch over to it for it's own (if also rather restrictive) take on it.


So, let us discuss possible alternatives:


I myself think that as you can CONTINUE a series of related concentrate maneuvers (see the Magic chapter in GURPS Basic Set), that rule (Will -3 to continue concentrating) could be a good basis.

I also think that the degree of physical involvement should be considered, either in such a will roll OR in the roll for the concentration maneuver itself.

Spells in particular should of course be completely impossible or very highly penalized if their verbal or somatic components are restricted (hand in front of the mouth, arms pinned).



I am also of the opinion though that some activities (a mental skill roll to remember a foes weakness, a sense roll, both examples given in the description of concentrate in the basic set) should be perfectly fine with just a Will roll -3.
Having a good chance to need a few seconds to get your head on the task of such a thing (several failed will rolls before succeeding) seems okay, not being able to do one of those two at all while grappled seems absurd.


Your input please?^^

[McAllister]

GURPS and MA state that the Concentrate penalty within a grapple is -infinity. You're dissatisfied with this, so I think what makes the most sense is to change the penalty to something else. A penalty equal to your opponent's strength is one idea, although as discussed in the other thread, it's usually the same as -infinity unless you have some way to get a bonus big enough to cancel it out, which is why I advocate All-Out Concentrate with a big bonus.

Honestly, I'm not sure why the Magic chapter included grappling in the list of things you make a Will-3 roll to concentrate through... I guess it's for if I'm a mage, an orc comes up and grapples me, and my friend shoots the orc to death before my turn comes up. In that case, technically I was grappled, but I never had to choose a maneuver. Basic Set is very clear:

If you have been grappled, you cannot take a Move maneuver unless
you have at least twice your foe’s ST. Aim, Feint, Concentrate, and Wait
maneuvers – and ranged attacks – are completely impossible.

Finally, if you're considering the "degree of physical involvement," you should probably clarify what you mean by that. It seems to me that spells with a verbal component shouldn't be penalized any more than other Concentrate maneuvers unless the head or neck is grappled, and spells with somatic components should be impossible if the arms are grappled, but possible (but penalized) if the torso is grappled.

[Varyon]

Do you have Technical Grappling? In that, Concentrate is not a forbidden maneuver, but rather requires an activation roll of Will, with a penalty based on the grappling foe's current effective ST.

[vicky_molokh]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Do you have Technical Grappling? In that, Concentrate is not a forbidden maneuver, but rather requires an activation roll of Will, with a penalty based on the grappling foe's current effective ST.

A bit of context:

Originally Posted by Yako

After following this rather interesting thread - and not having much to add to the basic topic than stating that I also do not really feel won over by technical grappling despite liking rule crunch in general, thus being most of all in vicky mookh's camp - I did want to invite more attention to the issue of the last few posts of grappling and concentration, and thus allowed myself to make the thread below:

http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread...83#post1836483



I think it is a sufficiently important topic to have it specifically addressed, I would be happy if anyone interested in that discussion would have a look at it.


Otherwise...


Maybe it would be useful to make a "technical grappling to Basic Set / Martial Arts" conversion of some of the rules and ideas, I did in particular like that it had some input on telekinesis, grappling and the effect of being lifted into the air as I myself had been discussing it on here.

If I get to it, I may read Technical Grappling more thoroughly myself and make notes on any good concept or rule that can be added to the Basic Set approach to grappling.

I myself have used quite a bit of grappling in my time and I must say, unlike thing such as the slam rules (which indeed produce headaches on table and away from it), grappling did seem very workable to me, I rarely encountered any problem aside maybe from extreme cases only ever popping up in theory (human grappling dinosaur and imposing a dex penalty at all, regular contest pins being highly dependent on when you apply the "mutual reduction" of strength and such).

[DouglasCole]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Do you have Technical Grappling? In that, Concentrate is not a forbidden maneuver, but rather requires an activation roll of Will, with a penalty based on the grappling foe's current effective ST.

The practical impact of this penalty is often "can't concentrate" though, so I can see why he wants an alternate.

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by vicky_molokh

A bit of context:

Ah, so I see.

Originally Posted by DouglasCole

The practical impact of this penalty is often "can't concentrate" though, so I can see why he wants an alternate.

In that case, Will-3 may arguably work as well as anything else, although I'd be inclined to go with Will-4 for consistency (as pretty much everything else takes a -4 while grappled). I'd probably also apply the grappling -4 for any rolls needed for the Concentrate maneuver itself (casting spells, scoping the battlefield, etc).

For those who still want to use TG, simply applying the Active Control penalty to the Will roll would mimic the above. If one actually likes the way TG handles it now, but feels a starting point of -10 is rather harsh, consider halving the current penalty. -5 is still pretty close to "impossible" for a typical person, after all.

[Andreas]

I don't really see why concentrating while grappling should be that difficult. In my experience it is no harder to do so while grappling than while engaging in high intensity sparring while standing (though I do admittedly have more experience with grappling).

If you impose a penalty related to the opponents strength, it should definitely take your strength into account as well. A child clinging to me won't impair my concentration nearly as much as an adult. Also even for somone much stronger than you there should be a cap for that penalty. There is a limit to how much you can distract someone with grappling without wounding your opponent (which gives it''s own penalty).