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Old 04-06-2020, 05:38 AM   #41
Chris Rice
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: London Uk, but originally from Scotland
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
My group implemented very much that as far back as the 1980's. We gave the "Magical Strength" stat the name "Mana Valence" or MV for short, implying charged to a certain level of Mana. Hits against MV recouped at the same rate as fatigue.

Our difference is that we populated/initialized the MV charge based on IQ rather than ST. This was to tempt wizards away from becoming Conans. Thus we kept low ST wizards, but as they weren't spending that ST on spells they became less vulnerable anyway.

I'm really tempted to do it as you suggested though, using ST instead of IQ. Then the player has to agonize over which of those two to increase to become a better wizard. I just don't want wizards to become so physically strong they really do usurp the importance of fighters.
Using this system I think a lot of Wizards will choose ST8, as it still gives them 8 spell points to use but they will prioritise DX and then IQ. There's nothing more frustrating for a Wizard than seeing your spell fail it's DX roll, especially if it still costs you ST to cast it. I'd probably favour ST8 DX14 and IQ10 for a starting Wizard. The high DX means most of your spells will succeed (and you can maybe even wear some armour) and there are quite a few useful spells in the IQ8-10 range.

I don't think 'Conan the Wizard' will be much of an issue either. A Wizard who starts the game with ST8 isn't going to put XP into ST just to have more spell power; they'll do that with a Mana Staff or apprentices.

This is thematic, as most Wizards in fantasy literature aren't physically strong; relying on their spells for effectiveness. But at the same time, if you want a Warrior Wizard, you could give him ST10 so he could use a sword. That will be rarer, but still viable.
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Old 04-08-2020, 04:27 AM   #42
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

At first I had written "I'm really tempted to do it as you [larsdangly] suggested though, using ST instead of IQ. Then the player has to agonize over which of those two to increase to become a better wizard. I just don't want wizards to become so physically strong they really do usurp the importance of fighters."

And it was that fear that actually got me to reconsider whether or not that could be avoided by a 4th, actual Attribute (an idea I always resisted.)

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Originally Posted by Chris Rice View Post
Using this system I think a lot of Wizards will choose ST8, as it still gives them 8 spell points to use but they will prioritise DX and then IQ. There's nothing more frustrating for a Wizard than seeing your spell fail it's DX roll, especially if it still costs you ST to cast it. I'd probably favour ST8 DX14 and IQ10 for a starting Wizard. The high DX means most of your spells will succeed (and you can maybe even wear some armour) and there are quite a few useful spells in the IQ8-10 range.
Favor ST 8 wizards a lot I think! After pretending there was a 4th Attribute -- Mana Valence with a minimum value of 8 -- I started to build sample wizards on this 40 point system. There's a whopping 22 ways to build a ST 8 wizard, with DX ranging from 10 to 13 (I got too tired to take it through the higher DXs). They could range from [DX 10, IQ 14, MV 8] to [DX 13, IQ 8, and MV 11] with 20 more variants between. That would be a ST 8 wizard to suit every taste. At the one end with ST and Mana both low, you still have 24 points to split between DX and IQ. At the other end, still 21 points to share between DX and IQ with Mana dialed up to 11. Now 11 points to power spells is getting pretty serious when you don't have to worry about damage tallied against it too.

Only looking at wizards of DX 10 to 13, there's 74 combinations possible with a minimum Mana attribute of 8. And in each case, still the traditional 32 points available to the other 3 attributes. The variety becomes mind boggling.

At the extreme "warrior wizard" end in this range, there would be a [ST 11, DX 13, IQ 8, MV 8] Which is more like a hero who knows a few spells.

One of the side benefits addresses something you mentioned: that fear of wasting 1 ST on a failed spell attempt would become a lot less when the caster has 8 to 11 points of Mana instead. Wizards could be less conservative, but still without becoming super-mages that upend the whole cherry cart.
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Old 04-08-2020, 07:35 AM   #43
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

So you want adjDX 12 for your combat attack that inflicts an average of 5.5 damage per fatigue expended and ignores the target's armor?

And then non-combat spells and talents that just use IQ 17 to super charge them?

Sounds like a ST 6, DX 9, IQ 17 Molly to me.
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Old 04-09-2020, 12:51 AM   #44
Steve Plambeck
 
Join Date: Jun 2019
Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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So you want [snip] a ST 6, DX 9, IQ 17 Molly to me.
Want? Oh no, not me. Figures that get weak in the knees for casting one spell, then die from a single nip aren't my cup of tea. They make fine adversaries though -- keep sending me more goblins please <eg>

Although your goblin wizard would actually be notably less anemic in the very 40-point, 4 attribute system I've been speculating about. Because now it would be:

ST 6 (goblin minimum), DX 9, IQ 17, and have the 8 point minimum Mana attribute on the 40 point starting scale.

Now your Molly can spend 8 points rather than 6 on spell-casting, without tapping into that frail ST 6 physique. Now that's making things more interesting, and I'd approach such an enemy with caution. Still, saddled with such a low DX, I wouldn't bet a copper on her long term effectiveness.

As a low ST wizard, if I were to start one for myself, I'd much rather go with something like ST 8, DX 12, IQ 10, MV 10 and light armor. Maybe even DX 13 and one less point of Mana -- one less point wasted on a failed spell is one more point to put into a working one after all. Now if this character ever acquires an IQ 17 spell, it'll be because it survived more than a few campaigns and become really formidable in the process.
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Old 04-09-2020, 05:33 AM   #45
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

Under the current system a 40-point Molly pays the same 8k XP for either ST 7 or 40 points of Mana.
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:48 PM   #46
Skarg
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Under the current system a 40-point Molly pays the same 8k XP for either ST 7 or 40 points of Mana.
Another way of looking at that is (and how I would tend to look at it, rather than how you just framed it), you're pretty much stuck at ST 6 having played for years that way and somehow survived.
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Old 04-09-2020, 02:54 PM   #47
hcobb
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

As we all know magical protective items are cheap and easily available when you have an IQ 17+ wizard looking for them.
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Old 04-09-2020, 07:23 PM   #48
Terquem
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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As we all know magical protective items are cheap and easily available when you have an IQ 17+ wizard looking for them.
This is one of those "Things" I disagree with.

Magic items are not "Automatically" available because a player says their IQ 17+ wizard can always find/make them

Magic items are available in the quantities and qualities that the GM/Players agree works for them and the campaign they are playing.

This is so much like another game I used to play where players would out right demand specific items be available "to buy" in any sort of town setting that met the requirements stated in the RAW - because these players needed those items to complete the character build they read about on line.

I would try to explain, "In this setting, those kinds of items can only be found in dungeons old and caverns deep," but then the player would just leave the game. Thus I often refer to this type of game as a "character building game" and not a role-playing game.
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Old 04-10-2020, 01:31 AM   #49
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Thus I often refer to this type of game as a "character building game" and not a role-playing game.
Oh I like that line!
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Old 04-10-2020, 03:03 AM   #50
Steve Plambeck
 
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Default Re: Balancing Hero & Wizard Through the Experience System

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Under the current system a 40-point Molly pays the same 8k XP for either ST 7 or 40 points of Mana.
I always get dizzy trying to interpret your posts. Well let's see. In the current, official system, for a 32 point character to get to 40 attribute points, the cost is 8,300 XP (100+100+200+etc, etc). I'm with you so far.

Now adding 41 points of staff Mana to a Mana Staff would indeed cost 8,200 XP if it were allowed. It's not allowed, but if it were the XP cost to stock up and walk around carrying that much ready Mana stored in that piece of wood is indeed virtually identical to the cost of increasing a 32 point character to a 40 point character in the current system.

But why point that out, and what the heck does ST 7 have to do with any of it? (Am I going to be sorry I asked?) Are you saying if (as your 41st Attribute point) you went from ST 6 to ST 7 it would cost 8000 XP? That's true in as much as the 41st point always costs 8000 XP, no matter which attribute you're adding it to.

It's also true that if you spent all your first XP on adding Mana to your staff up to the legal limit, you'd still only be a 32 point figure. And still being a 32 point character, it would only cost 100 XP to increase your ST by 1 when you were ready.

I guess the bigger question would be, how in the multiverse did you gain the 8000 XP in the first place being ST 6 and DX 9 the whole time? I mean, aside from a ton of magic items most campaigns would never allow.
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