Armour / Encumbrance alternative?

[hcobb]

Take ST 6, a very fine dagger, and use shrewd blows as needed to overcome armor.

The insanity in the weapon table is the weight column (I can live with armor weights.)

"Zweihänders above 4 kg (8.8 lb) were confined to ceremonial use."

And a true rapier ought to be a ST 12, 2d, 3 pound weapon.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~wew/fencing/blades.html

The two handed longsword is also 3 pounds, but is ST 9 (or perhaps 8) when used two handed. Again at least 2d damage.

The listed longbow is ST 13, but heavier pull versions do +1 damage for every two greater ST.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

The best thing about new TFT's core design is that you can't really decide which of the three stats are best to improve, even for by simple measure of effectiveness in combat, yet you sort of have to choose because you only get 38-40 total. It is brilliant.

Is this really true though? Isn't the reality that almost every character has to have a high DEX - its the other two that can be traded?

As a GM I know I have to gift a few points of DX to anyone I want to be armoured - otherwise, as I say, they have to either use a paper knife or never hit. And isn't the very idea of a ST 14 DX 10 IQ 14 character a disaster waiting to happen?**



** Maybe over-egging this, but do you get my point?

[hcobb]

ST 14, DX 10, IQ 14
Very fine silver dagger of striking(1d+1/1d+3 at adjDX 14 in HTH/1d that ignores armor at adjDX 13 for occult strikes)
Stone Skin ring.

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by hcobb

ST 14, DX 10, IQ 14
Very fine silver dagger of striking(1d+1/1d+3 at adjDX 14 in HTH/1d that ignores armor at adjDX 13 for occult strikes)
Stone Skin ring.

I'm sorry HCobb - but I am really not interested in magic-soaked 'solutions' here - I'm concerned about city guards, toughs, ordinary soldiers. People who need to be tough and functional without resorting to daggers as weapons.

Do you have some thoughts in that area?

[hcobb]

Guard ST 14, DX 10, IQ 8
Halberd(2d, adjDX 12 vs charge), Spear Thrower+Javelins(1d+1, adjDX 12), Dagger(1d+2 at adjDX 14 in HTH)
Area Knowledge, Brawling, Knife, Pole Weapons, Spear Thrower, Thrown Weapons

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by hcobb

Guard ST 14, DX 10, IQ 8
Halberd(2d, adjDX 12 vs charge), Spear Thrower+Javelins(1d+1, adjDX 12), Dagger(1d+2 at adjDX 14 in HTH)
Area Knowledge, Brawling, Knife, Pole Weapons, Spear Thrower, Thrown Weapons

So no armour at all! That's not the discussion here. Smh.

[larsdangly]

It is possible to find your way to disadvantageous combinations of stats, but it remains difficult to say what is ideal for a combat focused character. The particular example you gave (ST14 DX10 IQ14) has obviously moved too far away from DX (at least if you think of this person as purely a duelist) because the marginal advantages of 1 more point of DX are substantial. But if you shift the numbers a bit things get less obvious. Would I rather be ST 14, DX 14, IQ 10 or ST 14, DX 13, IQ 11? The former has a somewhat better chance of success at attack rolls, but the latter can learn Weapon Expertise. Are both inferior to someone with ST 10, DX 18, IQ 10? The latter can have 10 points of armor and maintain an adjusted DX of 12 (fine plate, tower shield, shield expertise), but the former can deliver a two handed sword attack that does 3d-1 or 4d-1 on a shrewd blow. My point is, there are lots and lots and lots of 'designs' that are valid, even when you restrict yourself to a single stat total and the narrow situation of one on one combat. Simplicity of elements that lead to complexity in outcomes is the mark of great game design.

[hcobb]

Why assume Fine Plate? That seems to be the most bizarre bit here.

So standard starting human character of 32 attribute points and $1k in gear has which optimal build?

[MikMod]

Originally Posted by larsdangly

It is possible to find your way to disadvantageous combinations of stats, but it remains difficult to say what is ideal for a combat focused character. The particular example you gave (ST14 DX10 IQ14) has obviously moved too far away from DX (at least if you think of this person as purely a duelist) because the marginal advantages of 1 more point of DX are substantial. But if you shift the numbers a bit things get less obvious. Would I rather be ST 14, DX 14, IQ 10 or ST 14, DX 13, IQ 11? The former has a somewhat better chance of success at attack rolls, but the latter can learn Weapon Expertise. Are both inferior to someone with ST 10, DX 18, IQ 10? The latter can have 10 points of armor and maintain an adjusted DX of 12 (fine plate, tower shield, shield expertise), but the former can deliver a two handed sword attack that does 3d-1 or 4d-1 on a shrewd blow. My point is, there are lots and lots and lots of 'designs' that are valid, even when you restrict yourself to a single stat total and the narrow situation of one on one combat. Simplicity of elements that lead to complexity in outcomes is the mark of great game design.

Well, the 14-10-14 was just an extreme example. But look at the ones you created. No DEX below 13, but ST of 10 or IQ of 10 no problem. Even the 14-13-10 would I think be much better off as 13-14-10 especially if we are looking for tanks.

And these are the very best of stats given 38-40 is effectively the max now.

I'm actually pretty interested in people around 32 points. At this level, something like 10-13-9 seems to be the only sensible choice if you want to wear anything substantial as armour. Whereas, if ST helped you carry armour then you might be able to see 12-11-9 more commonly with reasonable armour.

I mean, sure, you can disagree with my point of view, but I'm not seeing a wealth of actual examples of anything which might change my mind. Most tanks will have to have very high dexterity and correspondingly low strength until they get to very high stats levels, or they become so hopeless at attacking that they are laughable.

Do the PCs in your campaigns really have an even spread of stats? Isn't it the case that, like mine, dexterity is the preferred stat no matter who you are? At least up to, say 34-36 points? Want to hit more often and do more damage: dex. Want to wear more armour: dex. Want two arrows a round: dex. Want to make sure those spells actually come off, and in time to be useful: dex. Want to be able to reliably disengage that big monster before he hits: dex. At least until it's 13-14.

[larsdangly]

Context is everything hobb, old fellow! We were in the midst of a side-bar discussion of optimal stats, in a thread about the relative value of and approaches to armor. The person to whom I was responded suggested a ST 14 DX 10 IQ 14 character is a chump. I responded (basically agreeing) but offered three different variants at the same point total, which were intended to make my original point that they game supports a variety of ways to skin a cat.

As for why you would consider fine plate when talking about 38 point player characters, the answer is obvious: it's good armor, it is listed in the standard armor table, and only the most irresponsible of 38 point characters would be unable to afford it. Why wouldn't I consider it in this context?