Crew and Passenger positions and suits/powered armor

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by GURPS Fox

The thing is that the basic assault rifles in the setting are around (using a modified version of the sqrt(KE^1.04/Xsect^0.314)/13.3926=# of dice, but have 13.3926 replaced with 46.8741 to make the dice numbers more even from what I've been told) 9d+2 in general, with battle rifle rounds being around 14d+1, so the only way to get your soldiers to not rebel on you (even fanatical troops would pause a moment when facing such weapons) is clad them in power armor which has enough armor to at least blunt the impact.

Eh, not really. Even ignoring other methods of keeping troops in line, people are willing to go up against high-caliber weapons without any armor to speak of. I mean, you had completely-unarmored irregulars going up against modern tanks in the middle east, and a hit even from one of the anti-personnel machine guns on one of those things would be a near-guaranteed fatal hit. They also went up against Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and the Bushmasters mounted to those are far more vicious than what you're describing (albeit with perhaps lower RoF).

Note that doesn't invalidate issuing even crewmembers powered armor, however. Perhaps the culture involved considers it to be a malicious disregard for your own soldiers' lives to not issue everyone with such impressive protection. Perhaps powered armor is so cheap it's almost a waste to not issue it to everyone, even if you need slightly-larger crewstations (and more fuel, considering you're shifting more mass around). Perhaps some politicians got some really good kickbacks when the military signed a deal with the powered armor manufacturers to provide enough suits, replacement parts, etc to equip and maintain their entire fighting force.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by GURPS Fox

.

The thing is that the basic assault rifles in the setting are around (using a modified version of the sqrt(KE^1.04/Xsect^0.314)/13.3926=# of dice, but have 13.3926 replaced with 46.8741 to make the dice numbers more even from what I've been told) 9d+2 in general, with battle rifle rounds being around 14d+1, so

In the 4e UT book TL9 Space Armor has DR 50 on the torso and DR 30 on the limbs. That "blunts" those rounds pretty well. TL10 Space Armor has DR 50% higher.

The 150 lb Battlesuit has DR70/50 or 105/75 and stops them even better. 500lbs is overkill unless everyone shoots the best AP rounds all the time. If they do that 14D+2 becomes 14D+16(3) and penetrates the 500 lb Battlesuit in UT and its' DR150/100.

Mostly though you 're talking about suits for vehicle crew. What kind of combat vehicle doesn't protect its' crew better than the armor they're wearing?

[GURPS Fox]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Eh, not really. Even ignoring other methods of keeping troops in line, people are willing to go up against high-caliber weapons without any armor to speak of. I mean, you had completely-unarmored irregulars going up against modern tanks in the middle east, and a hit even from one of the anti-personnel machine guns on one of those things would be a near-guaranteed fatal hit. They also went up against Bradley Fighting Vehicles, and the Bushmasters mounted to those are far more vicious than what you're describing (albeit with perhaps lower RoF).

Note that isn't entirely the case, at least after a few times anyway. In addition to that, what we've seen is a literal outright proliferation of personal protection systems that is resistant to current stocks of military ammo outside of things like mortars, heavy machineguns, autocannons, and the like.

This is why the US military has been pushing with the new 6.8x51mm high-velocity round.

Note that doesn't invalidate issuing even crewmembers powered armor, however. Perhaps the culture involved considers it to be a malicious disregard for your own soldiers' lives to not issue everyone with such impressive protection. Perhaps powered armor is so cheap it's almost a waste to not issue it to everyone, even if you need slightly-larger crewstations (and more fuel, considering you're shifting more mass around). Perhaps some politicians got some really good kickbacks when the military signed a deal with the powered armor manufacturers to provide enough suits, replacement parts, etc to equip and maintain their entire fighting force.

That isn't the case. The biggest problem with the US and what is considered the 'West' is that every death is insanely bad, to the point that it is more damaging than destroying material.

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In the 4e UT book TL9 Space Armor has DR 50 on the torso and DR 30 on the limbs. That "blunts" those rounds pretty well. TL10 Space Armor has DR 50% higher.

The 150 lb Battlesuit has DR70/50 or 105/75 and stops them even better. 500lbs is overkill unless everyone shoots the best AP rounds all the time. If they do that 14D+2 becomes 14D+16(3) and penetrates the 500 lb Battlesuit in UT and its' DR150/100.

Mostly though you 're talking about suits for vehicle crew. What kind of combat vehicle doesn't protect its' crew better than the armor they're wearing?

One where, due to the fact that it needs to haul PA infantry with it, can only have thin armor or it'll weigh well over 50 metric tons... for an APC that is proofed against AR fire and use LNG for fuel (as petrol got insanely scarce in a CnC Tib/Generals fusion setting thanks to a certain growing green rock). At least in my last illiteration.

In addition, due to the proliferation of personal body protection (something that we're seeing today), we're looking at requiring something on the order of 112DR because everyone is loading their guns with AP rounds.

Note, the PA in question looks like this child of Tau Firewarrior body armor and Battletech's Nighthawk Mk XXI.

[Ulzgoroth]

Originally Posted by GURPS Fox

Damn, good to know.

The thing is that the basic assault rifles in the setting are around (using a modified version of the sqrt(KE^1.04/Xsect^0.314)/13.3926=# of dice, but have 13.3926 replaced with 46.8741 to make the dice numbers more even from what I've been told) 9d+2 in general, with battle rifle rounds being around 14d+1, so the only way to get your soldiers to not rebel on you (even fanatical troops would pause a moment when facing such weapons) is clad them in power armor which has enough armor to at least blunt the impact.

Troops throughout the 19th and 20th centuries (and indeed many in the 17th and 18th) operated against weapons that weren't really significantly less deadly and against which they had no effective protection. It's only very recently or very far back that there's been any expectation of useful personal armor, even in the wealthiest armed forces.

Increasing the damage dice of the guns doesn't really make any difference there. They're already thoroughly lethal.

[GURPS Fox]

Originally Posted by Ulzgoroth

Troops throughout the 19th and 20th centuries (and indeed many in the 17th and 18th) operated against weapons that weren't really significantly less deadly and against which they had no effective protection. It's only very recently or very far back that there's been any expectation of useful personal armor, even in the wealthiest armed forces.

Increasing the damage dice of the guns doesn't really make any difference there. They're already thoroughly lethal.

You would think so, but it's a bit of a yes-and-no situation in many of my settings.

I'm a very pro-transhumanist by heart, so that means various cybernetics and gene-mods are going to be a thing. That means an increase in durability at the bog-standard level. In addition, at least one of my settings has humanity having a +1TL to its armor. So instead of TL8 armor, they've got TL9, and so forth.

To give you an idea, my future-history setting's armor evolved rather similarly to Battletech after the mid-21st century, creating a situation where guys in (comparatively) primitive power armor are modifying HMGs as assault rifles because other small arms couldn't do the job. As the minimal energy required to ablate the armor is so great, weapons had to increase their Ke immensely to even hope to penetrate this armor, causing pistols to be HMG grade in Ke output. In addition to this armor, the various cybernetic and genetic mods have drastically improved the hardiness of troops, causing them to require said kinetic energy to harm them.

Basically, a situation in Ghost in the Shell where anyone with MilSpec augmentations requires hypervelocity (so, well, 3km/s) rounds to even hope to achieve wounding, let alone a kill.

It isn't as prominent as in other situations but the general problem is there, so to speak.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by GURPS Fox

Basically, a situation in Ghost in the Shell where anyone with MilSpec augmentations requires hypervelocity (so, well, 3km/s) rounds to even hope to achieve wounding, let alone a kill.

Gurps will not support this. Partially because it understands the power of HEAT rounds. The smallest TL9 HEAT round (25mm) will do 5Dx3 (!0) and penetrate over DR 500. Of course, bigger rounds penetrate even more.

Also as a Real World note at over 2200 meters per second even depleted uranium will not penetrate like a solid object. It wil shatter into very small pieces and crate shallowly. At over 3000 meters per second you'l see the lower end of meteoric explosions. The projectiles would also start to burn up in an Earth-like atmosphere like meteors. It would be a very poor way to try and penetrate armor. The military isn't even interested in projectile velocities over 2200 meter per second.

[GURPS Fox]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Gurps will not support this. Partially because it understands the power of HEAT rounds. The smallest TL9 HEAT round (25mm) will do 5Dx3 (!0) and penetrate over DR 500. Of course, bigger rounds penetrate even more.

From my understanding, HEAT isn't going to cut it anymore, especially as new armor comes into play.

Also as a Real World note at over 2200 meters per second even depleted uranium will not penetrate like a solid object. It wil shatter into very small pieces and crate shallowly. At over 3000 meters per second you'l see the lower end of meteoric explosions. The projectiles would also start to burn up in an Earth-like atmosphere like meteors. It would be a very poor way to try and penetrate armor. The military isn't even interested in projectile velocities over 2200 meter per second.

That isn't entirely the case. At 2km/s, kinetic projectiles act more like HEAT rounds than kinetics and from my understanding, any military worth their salt would rather have a higher velocity than a heavier round when all possible.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by GURPS Fox

From my understanding, HEAT isn't going to cut it anymore, especially as new armor comes into play.

That isn't entirely the case. At 2km/s, kinetic projectiles act more like HEAT rounds than kinetics and from my understanding, any military worth their salt would rather have a higher velocity than a heavier round when all possible.

I have never seen any evidence to support your understandings.

<shrug>If you want evidence of extremely fast projectiles exploding like meteors look at the Moon.

[GURPS Fox]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

I have never seen any evidence to support your understandings.

The existence of top-attack missiles proves my point. It's just too hard to get a missile that can penetrate a tank with most ATGMs by direct-attack profiles, the only way to win is to get to the weakest point which is the top side. With metal foams being experimented as part of laminate armor schemes (we've already got EndoSteel(tm) V0.1 right now, and it acts exactly like it is described in the Battletech fluff), I wouldn't be surprised that combat is going to go the way of Battletech...

Add ADS systems proliferating and, well, have fun being infantry with HEAT rounds...

<shrug>If you want evidence of extremely fast projectiles exploding like meteors look at the Moon.

Last I've checked, you only get solid-state explosions at velocities of 5km/s or greater, not 3km/s. Kinetics acting like a HEAT round, last I've heard, continues until somewhere around 4km/s.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by GURPS Fox

The existence of top-attack missiles proves my point.s.

It would only prove that someone thought the thinner armor on top would make up for the reduced size of the warhead or the longer flight path.

All ther more lightly armored sides of tanks are attractive targets. Indeed it is (and has been for a long time) one of the biggest problems of tanks.

However, even more common than top attack missiles are warheads that have been growing ever larger. That shows that there are people who think goign through the front armor is easy enough.

Also, you're misunderstanding that foamed metal armor story. Even if it was leading to BattleTeach Endo-Steel was the structural material for interior frames. "Ferro-Fibrous" was the Star League/Clan armor.

In Gurps it's just "metal-matrix composits" or "Metallic Laminate" in Spaceships and has been figured into the various tech books.