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Old 04-11-2011, 10:51 AM   #31
JCurwen3
 
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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Originally Posted by pawsplay View Post
It's p.103, and as I noted before, the name of that section is: "Ability other than an attck or defense."
Considering that using Cosmic to bypass Injury Tolerance forms' built-in limitations (like making Diffuse extend to area effect damage) has been officially nixed / poo-pooed on a number of occasions, I'd say Injury Tolerance is considered a defense.

But I think that's fair - I.T. does reduce the damage from some attacks. It doesn't only alter how it affects you, it also can and does alter what the final damage value is.

Not so with SD. SD doesn't make you take less damage... ever. It's more like a weird suped-up Unkillable, except you are killable under two conditions (the first being that specific weakness, and the other being a single attack that does 10xHP which basically blows you apart). I don't think Unkillable would be considered a defense, and neither do I see SD as one. I mean, sure, it does defend against being knocked out or stunned and crippling injuries, but those aspects of it are unaffected by the specific SD weakness item thing. And in the end, a guy with SD will lose just as much HP from a 9-point blast as a guy without SD, under any and all circumstances. So, it's not a defense. Otherwise, we'd be forced to say Unkillable and Regeneration are defenses. In fact, there's more of a case for Unkillable 2+ being a defense than SD, because it does stop you from taking damage - it actually makes you 100% invulnerable... once you hit -10xHP.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:08 AM   #32
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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Considering that using Cosmic to bypass Injury Tolerance forms' built-in limitations (like making Diffuse extend to area effect damage) has been officially nixed / poo-pooed on a number of occasions, I'd say Injury Tolerance is considered a defense.
This Does Not Follow. Just because the game designers have said "that way lies insanity" does not put it in the defense category. Nor, I point out, does that make it an attack either. It can be "a thing for which these particular rules exemptions are simply not valid".

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But I think that's fair - I.T. does reduce the damage from some attacks. It doesn't only alter how it affects you, it also can and does alter what the final damage value is.
It does NOT reduce damage. Damage is a specific game term, and Injury Tolerance does NOT interact with damage. It specifically, and only, interacts with injury - it even says it in its name!

That's one of the BIG reasons why you can't use Area Effect to "layer" it on other people or over DR - you can't get to the Injury before you've resolved the Damage.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:14 AM   #33
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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Considering that using Cosmic to bypass Injury Tolerance forms' built-in limitations (like making Diffuse extend to area effect damage) has been officially nixed / poo-pooed on a number of occasions, I'd say Injury Tolerance is considered a defense.
Those are two unrelated objections.

The former objection is that you're extending an ability rather than removing a built-in restriction. The fact that Diffuse doesn't protect against area attacks is much like 360-Degree Vision doesn't give you Infravision. Neither are part of the abilities does so it's not valid to use Cosmic.

The "it's a defense" objection would simply prescribe a different effect. Cosmic enhanced defenses ignore the bypassing effect of Cosmic enhanced attacks.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:14 AM   #34
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

For clarity:

Damage is what you roll, and what gets modified by DR. It remains damage all the way down until it's gone through all the DR layers and you actually have to start thinking about how it needs to be applied to your hit points.

Injury is what is applied against your hit points.

There's a mathematical step in between the two stages - adjustments for hit location and damage type are the most common, but Injury Tolerances, Vulnerabilities, and the like also factor in the transformation between Damage and Injury.

Defenses are against the Damage side of things. Injury modifications happen after "its too late".

The third step is then determining how the character reacts (other than subtracting HP, which has just been resolved) - which is where Supernatural Durability, Hard to Kill, Unkillable, Fragile: Unnatural and the like fit in. Also number of HP factors in here as well - HP multiple factors against Shock penalty, for example.

Carried effects like Symptoms and Side Effects need the Injury phase fully resolved to determine resistance penalties, or what level of effect to apply etc.
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Last edited by Bruno; 04-11-2011 at 11:17 AM.
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:15 AM   #35
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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This Does Not Follow. Just because the game designers have said "that way lies insanity" does not put it in the defense category. Nor, I point out, does that make it an attack either. It can be "a thing for which these particular rules exemptions are simply not valid".



It does NOT reduce damage. Damage is a specific game term, and Injury Tolerance does NOT interact with damage. It specifically, and only, interacts with injury - it even says it in its name!

That's one of the BIG reasons why you can't use Area Effect to "layer" it on other people or over DR - you can't get to the Injury before you've resolved the Damage.
Sorry, you're right. I guess what I meant by "damage" was how much HP you end up losing as a result, but that's "injury".

Note though, then SD is a form of injury tolerance: you're immune to crippling injuries until you go under 0 HP, and the effects of the HP loss (the effects of low HP being "part" of the injury) are effectively removed. But it doesn't ever reduce how much HP you end up losing to any damaging effects. And it certainly doesn't stop or reduce damage, so it's not a defense (or, obviously, an attack).
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:36 AM   #36
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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Defenses are against the Damage side of things. Injury modifications happen after "its too late".
What is your justification for this assertion?
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:42 AM   #37
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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What is your justification for this assertion?
Yeah... from one point of view, Injury Tolerance is a defense in the sense that it defends against one or more effects of being damaged.

Also I think IT:DR tows the line - I mean, it actually is called Damage Reduction, as in, it reduces damage. Still, it's also under the Injury Tolerance group of advantages, so we have that (although in my mind it's misplaced, being there).
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Old 04-11-2011, 11:47 AM   #38
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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What is your justification for this assertion?
That Cosmic "ignores defenses" doesn't work against it.
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Old 04-11-2011, 12:27 PM   #39
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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That Cosmic "ignores defenses" doesn't work against it.
Neither does a shaped charge. Don't see the connection. Cosmic can grant No die roll required, No active defense allowed, and Irresistible attack, only one of which applies to DR. Those all apply to attacks.

In theory, you could devise a new Cosmic that overcomes a weakness in a defense. But I assert that SupDur is a defense and is not covered by any existing option except "ignore Cosmic attack modifier."
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Old 04-11-2011, 01:23 PM   #40
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Default Re: Supernatural Durability With No Weakness

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Neither does a shaped charge.
Don't see the connection."
You don't see the connection between "ignores defenses" not ignoring it and it not being a defense?
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