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Old 08-22-2007, 07:16 PM   #21
Lord Schnibb
 
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kamickalo
Did you try hyperventilating first to oxygenate the blood? Breathe in and out fast three times, and then breathe in and hold it. I probably have Ht 10 and the unfit disadvantage, and my current record is 2 minutes that way.
I did not do this, but the rules say hyperventilating before increases the amount of time you can hold your breath by 150%. Also, a lot of unfit people can hold their breathe for a long time because being more or less fit doesn't really influence your lung capacity, it just influences how effectively you use the air you get.

As for aerobic and anaerobic endurance, I will agree to differences matters in real life but is complicated in game. I could see doing it by having 2 banks of fatigue (bought up/down at 1 point per level), one used for ongoing tasks like hiking, distance running, etc. and the other used for imediate tasks like sprinting, extra effort, magic, etc. Hunger and other conditions that drained FP would effect both.

I have a few ideas that I'm not sure how to put together because I'm not sure how much 1 FP really is. How tired are you at 2/3, 1/2, and 1/3 FP? I imagine 1/3 is the lowest you would ever go if you were racing because you'd loss a ton of speed. But I'm not really sure how much 1 FP represents. 1 HP is a bit easier to grasp just by looking at things that deal typically 1 HP in damage, but I'm not sure how fatigued you have to be for GURPS to consider you fatigued.

If I want to get really crazy I'll come up with something for how you tend to loss a ton of fatigue suddenly from sprinting whereas it goes steadily from paced running.

Last edited by Lord Schnibb; 08-22-2007 at 07:35 PM.
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Old 08-22-2007, 10:53 PM   #22
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

If you want to get technical about how much 1 fatigue point is, wouldn't it be easier to just ask a dietician "how many calories are expended in an hour's worth of walking?"

From what I recall of high school advanced placement biology back in 1978 (ie, take this with a MAJOR grain of salt!), sensations of fatigue are based upon how much lactic acid buildup your body experiences during prolonged exercise or as a result of a sudden explosion of activity. The body requires time to break down the lactic acid buildup - taking away the feeling of fatigue as it were. In a way, I would imagine it is akin to the process of having your liver metabolize alcohol - removing that "drunken high" over time.

The way I look at it, the human body is a huge chemical battery of sorts. The food you took in during a meal helps create ATP. The use of energy for activity produces ADP and lactic acid. You need the metabolized food in your system to turn ADP back into ATP - and the process begins anew. Those who are fit - are fit because they trained their muscles to function on a leaner regime such that their muscles produce less lactic acid. Those who are really good at pushing the limits are able to do so despite their lactic acid build up - on a "runner's high" as it were despite the build up.
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Old 08-22-2007, 11:16 PM   #23
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by hal
If you want to get technical about how much 1 fatigue point is, wouldn't it be easier to just ask a dietician "how many calories are expended in an hour's worth of walking?"
Answer: it varies. In any case, lack of energy isn't what causes you to drag after several hours of walking; it's accumulated stress injuries (particularly to feet and joints) that slow you down. Damage is why you ache after exercise.
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Old 08-23-2007, 12:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Luther
Hiking Rules Legacy
I don't have my notes right here but my fix is something like that:
- Base hiking movement is Move x 0.8 in miles/hour (*)
- FP per hour is Encumbrance +1.
- You can hike your Hiking skill in hours before using Long Task rules (B346).
(*) I can't remember the exact multiplier, use what you like.
Move x 0.8 is the rules as they are written... At least... As they are almost written.

Indeed, Dr Kromm wrote that GURPS hiking rules (move x 10) means that the character walks 12.5 hours a day.

Move x 10 / 12.5 = move x 0.8.

So move x 10 miles per day = move x 0.8 miles per hour.

With that rate, average Joe can walk 4 miles per hour, which is about what I can do *. Now, is average Joe able to walk 12.5 hours a day? I don't believe so... But I never tried it... ;-)

So, in my games, I use the long task rules with hiking rules. The characters hike at move x 0.8 mph and the player say how many hours they walk each day. Usually, they walk 8 to 10 hours, to avoid being completely exhausted the day after, which means 32 to 40 miles per day for unencumbered average Joe.

* Note that this rate is for a march, not just a walk... When you walk in the street, for instance, you don't push yourself... You don't take 1 fatigue point in one hour (10 times that and you collapse!)... GURPS authors, and many others, specified that move x 10 means that the characters are in an emergency (reach the next village, castle, dungeon, battlefield or whatever as fast as possible).

Last edited by Gollum; 08-23-2007 at 09:29 AM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 02:52 AM   #25
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Now, to answer more accurately to Lord Schnibb.

I'm about average Joe. Perhaps with 11 in IQ...

So, what do the rules say?

1) I can march 4 mph (6,4 km/h).
2) I can run (paced running) 3.5 yard per second (3.2 km/h). 1 mile in 8 minutes 23 seconds. 7.16 mph (11,5 km/h).
3) I can sprint 7 yards/second in a straight line (6.4 km/h). 100 meters in 15.6 seconds.
4) I can lift 20 pounds (9 kg) over my head with one hand in one second.
5) I can lift 160 pounds (73 kg) two handed.
6) I can jump 20 inches (51 cm) high. 40 inches (1,02 m) with a running jump.
7) I can jump 7 feet (2.13 m) long. 14 feet (4.26 m) with a running jump.
8) I can hold my breath for 110 seconds (1 minute and 50 seconds) before collapsing. 160 second (2 minutes and 40 seconds) if I hyperventilated first.

A) Without encumbrance, I can march 10 hours in a raw before collapsing.
B) I can run (paced running) about 20 minutes before collapsing *.
C) I can sprint about 5 minutes before collapsing *.

And what do the reality say?

1) Don’t really know, but it seems reasonnable for a march.
2) I run about 10 km/h without pushing myself too much.
3) Don’t really know. But it seems reasonnable.
4) Never tried. I just tried with 6 kg and it was easy…
5) Don’t really know. But it seems reasonnable.
6) That is almost exactly what I did at school, when I was 16.
7) That is almost exactly what I did at school, when I was 16.
8) My personal record is 95 seconds… But I didn’t collapse. And I hyperventilated first.

A) Never tried. And I won’t! ;-)
B) I can run (paced running) 1 hour without collapsing. But I have some training in the running skill… If my running skill was 11, GURPS rules would allow me to run 52 minutes before collapsing. If it was 12, GURPS rules would allow me to run 77 minutes before collapsing. And if it was 13, GURPS rules would allow me to run 123 minutes before collapsing. I don’t thing I have a running skill of 12. I would have said 11, at best. But I have to admit that I never pushed myself to a rate of 11.5 km/h. I run about 10 km/h (6.2 mph).
C) I never tried it… One day… Maybe… ;-)

So, what?

Even if it is not exactly like the reality, GURPS seems to be quite close to what I can do.

To my mind, the wrongest thing is the fact that, following the rules exactly as they are written, I can walk 50 miles a day (and do that the day after) without any problem. Even 62.5 (x1.25) on a good road! I sometimes walked about 15 miles per day for a week and found it exhausting… But I did it… So, I don’t really know what I could do… And with the rate in miles per hour and the long task rules, things are more believable…

* HT roll of 10. 1 FP every two HT check.

Last edited by Gollum; 08-23-2007 at 09:32 AM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:06 AM   #26
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin
Running: The running rules are indeed broken, broken, broken. If you think you're having trouble in the simple neighborhood you were doing calculation is, try seeing how long a reasonable seeming marathoner with HT 14 and Very Fit can run _at a full sprint_ (hint, it's measured in hours).
Sorry, but there is a misunderstanding here. In GURPS rules, some advantages are made to design characters which are not especially good in the generic attribute, but good in one limited area of this generic attribute.

A flexible character, for instance, hasn't both a high level of DX and the flexible advantage. He can have a good DX: 11 or 12, but is above all flexible (which gives him a high DX + flexible bonus, for tasks that require flexibility).

Likewise, Mozart isn't both very bright and very musically talented. He has a good IQ (about 12) and a very good musical talent (+4 or more).

So, marathoners (realistic marathoners) have not HT 14 and the very fit advantage. They are not much better than you and me to resist illness, poisons or radiations. But they are much better to run for a very long time. So they have probably HT 11-12 (if not just 10) and the fit or very fit advantage.

Of course, if you give them HT 14 plus the very fit advantage, you will obtain superhuman results. But if you give Mozart IQ 16 plus musical talent +4, you will obtain a character that could become a world-class instrument player (a level of 18!) with only 200 hours of training. It's fun in a cinematic campaign, not in a realistic one. Likewise, a HT 14 plus very fit character is a superheroic character, not a realistic one.

Edit
Having said that, I do agree with some of what you wrote: I don't think I'm able to run 5 minutes at full speed. That would allow me to run 1.2 miles at full speed. And that would allow olympic 1000 meters runners to run as fast as if they were running a 100 meters, which is not at all true.

Last edited by Gollum; 08-23-2007 at 09:54 AM.
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Old 08-23-2007, 09:54 AM   #27
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

After a while of thought (and, I hope, a successful IQ roll)...

Wow! With GURPS rules, I'm able (and every average Joe is able) to run a 1000 meters in 2 minutes and 36 seconds... The world record is 2 minutes and 11 seconds (1999, Noah Ngeny, Kenya)!!!

Errata of the reply above

Two things are weird in GURPS Physical feats, not just one.

1) The ability to walk 12.5 a day, for months, without any training.
2) The ability to run at full speed for 15 second per fatigue point, which mean to run at full speed for more than two minutes.

I believe that the main problem with GURPS physical feat is fatigue cost!
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Old 04-18-2023, 12:53 PM   #28
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

I realize I’m responding to a very old thread but where are these rules found?
Page references would be helpful.
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Old 04-18-2023, 01:08 PM   #29
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

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Originally Posted by briansommers View Post
I realize I’m responding to a very old thread but where are these rules found?
Page references would be helpful.
You can find them in the index of the GURPS Basic Set. Since then, variant rules have appeared in various places, but I don't know of an index of all the variations.
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Last edited by Polydamas; 04-18-2023 at 01:14 PM.
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Old 04-18-2023, 01:10 PM   #30
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by briansommers View Post
I realize I’m responding to a very old thread but where are these rules found?
Page references would be helpful.
I think most of what's referenced in the thread is in "Physical Feats," which starts on B349. I'll note that at least one of the problematic rules (Hiking) has since been updated, I believe in High Tech.
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