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Old 08-21-2007, 09:36 PM   #11
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred Brackin
<shakes head> Much too reasonable to be a fanatic.

But yes, Gurps lets characters off too easily on FP expenditure for anything except magic a lot of the time. You can try and work your way around some of it by saying that top level athletes are almost always using some degree of Extra Effort and buring FP that way. That still leaves lots of other problems though.

Fred Brackin
Seems like one could look at Ultramarathoning records and figure they have HT12 to 14, Very Fit, and lots of Hiking and Running skills, and especially if it's ideal terran, base the FT expenditure on what it would take to make those times and have FT/3 left when you're done. Then see what that means for Joe Average, and if it's sensible, call it done.

So, this site lists some ultramarathon times.

Mens 31M: 187 minutes (3 hours) on a track (10mph for 31M)
Mens 50M: 335 minutes (5.5 hours) on a road (9 mph for 50M)
Mens 62M: 433 minutes (7.5 hours) on a road (8.5mph for 50M)
Mens 100M: 1083 minutes (18 hours) on a trail (5.5 mph for 100M)

Stu Mittleman is the US record holder for a six-day race, going 578 miles in that time; that's 96.3 miles per day for six days. That's 4mph if you assume 24hrs (probably not), 6mph if you asssume 16hrs/day (likely).

I bet there's some point, probably around 8-12 hours, where you just HAVE to rest. Then your sustainable pace drops from Move 4-5 to Move 3.

Fred's stats show 14mph as the sustainable speed at the fatigue burn rate sufficient to run for 4.5 hours and 64.6 miles.

The base move of 6 is somewhat problematic, since it's perfectly plausible to have it (hard to avoid with high HT), and suggests that FP loss needs to throttle with some fraction of basic move. So at 75% of basic move, your FP loss matches Fred's numbers. this puts our ultramarathoner in the right ballpark for speed and time. At 100% basic move, I'd maybe try doubling FP loss, and at 120% of basic move (sprinting), quadruple it. Or more. I could easily see full-out sprinting mandating a roll vs fatigue loss every second.

So, using 1 roll/second for full-out sprinting, 1 roll per 15 seconds for 75% of Move, and (say) 1 roll per 4 seconds for full move should get you, at Move 6:
40.5 miles in 4.5 hours...or
14.4 miles in 1.2 hours...or
4.32 miles in 18 minutes.

Assuming that my rule of thumb basically cuts the amount of time you can go at the desired pace by 4/15 and 1/15, respectively.

One last thing: going to 50% of basic move needs to move the roll frequency to once every 60 seconds. [Edit: Gaack! Desired endurance is 16 hours, not 18] That gives the desired 16 hour endurance at Move 3, or 96 miles per day, making it equal to Stu's record.
this actually keeps the (rough) 4x scaling, too, per 25% change in Move.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 08-22-2007 at 07:09 AM.
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Old 08-21-2007, 10:14 PM   #12
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Note that for the calcs above, I was using Fred's figure of a 4.5 hour endurance with all the rules applied. So if the progression for non-Fit roll frequency is:

50% Basic Move: roll once/60 seconds
75% Basic Move: roll once/15 seconds
100% Basic Move: roll once/4 seconds
120% basic Move: roll once/second

hopefully you should get reasonable figures that match with real-world results, even with Fit and Very Fit factored in.

I also note that the Hiking rules say you can go 10xMove miles per day. That's the equivalent of 50% Basic Move, which means that you'll be going 5mph for 10 hours, and lose (on the average) 5FP.

What we need now is long-term recovery rules for FP. Something that scales, so if you rest for a few minutes, you get back a little fatigue. If you rest for a few hours, you get back a bit more. It should probably take a day or two for FP loss that doesn't go below 1/3 of total FP, but probably a week or two for total recovery if you DO go below 1/3FP.
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 08-22-2007 at 06:55 AM. Reason: tie-in with hiking
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Old 08-22-2007, 09:37 AM   #13
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

I did a few calculations with my numbers above, and they don't really work.

I played a bit more, and came up with this, which starts to be better:

25% Encumbered move: Roll every 5 min
50% Encumbered move: Roll every 75 sec
75% Encumbered move: Roll every 20 sec
100% Encumbered move: Roll every 4 sec
120% Encumbered move ("sprinting"): Roll every second

Both "Running" and "Hiking" can replace HT for rolling's sake, both are based on HT, and I'm thinking they're Easy skills. If you have the one, you probably don't need the other in order to cover distance, but you probably would do deal with terrain, packing, gear selection, etc.

Another way to go is that Hiking subs for HT at 50% Move or less, while Running subs for HT at greater than 50% move. Might want to invoke a Rule of 14 or something here to avoid perverse outcomes, so that the max attribute you put in for this is 14, +2 for Very Fit, so 17-18 always fails, still.

If you assume that once you get below FP/2, you're really starting to feel it, and below FP/3 you're staggering and barely able to move (so you need will and/or HT rolls - unmodified by skill - to avoid potential injury situations where you'd take HP of damage), then the Move 6 ultra-marathoner (HT14, Very Fit, effective HT16, double FT interval) at 50% basic move and no encumbrance will cover 95.9 miles before he falls below FP/2.

Average Joe (no levels of Fit, HT10, no running skill), moving at 50% Move can only keep this up for a mile before he's going to feel tired. Note that this is a 12 minute mile, which is trotting. At a 24 minute walking pace, he'll feel tired after 2.13 miles.

With a bit more training, say Running-12, this is easily pushed to 5.1 miles of brisk walking before you tire. Going faster (50% move) and you do about 2.5 miles at a 12 minute mile before you feel fatigued. At a 8 minute mile pace, Joe Average can only keep this up for about half a mile. You'll want Running AND either HT or extra FP in order to make someone who can really cover distance.

Still, the open question is how you gain that FP back.
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:06 PM   #14
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Douglas Cole's methode seems very good for long distances. It fits what people are realistically able to do. IIRC, the average mile time for a human was around 10 minutes, but of course you would be tired so the calculation works.

The only thing that concerns me is fatigue loss from sprinting. I know a kid who had a severe hip condition when he was young and spent four years in a wheelchair. He still can't run very far (no more then one lap of a track), but he is the fastest sprinter (for his age) that anyone has ever seen. At 13 he ran 100 meters in 11.6 and 200 meters in 24. That was a while ago and I'm not sure how he's doing now, but the state record (10.6 here in NY) is clearly in sight. Theoretically, though, he shouldn't even be able to sprint for 24 seconds without going below 1/3 FP since he wouldn't have HT over ten. How would you model that in GURPS?

Also, what would you make of 400 runners that sprint a lap of the track? Ironically, slower times seem less feasible for this race because they require you to make more rolls. A fast middle school runner would have no shot at making 62 or 63 HT rolls, especiallly because they wouldn't have very high HT/Very Fit. It seems far more reasonable for a world record time of 43 seconds with HT 14 and Very Fit.

I'd try and see how the world records for 800 and 1500 (1:41 and 3:26 hold up to his but I have severe poison ivy and I'm on medication for it, which is two reasons why I don't feel like using my brain.
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Old 08-22-2007, 01:34 PM   #15
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Schnibb
Douglas Cole's methode seems very good for long distances. It fits what people are realistically able to do.
The only thing that concerns me is fatigue loss from sprinting. .
The real problem that we have here is that Gurps does not distinguish between aerobic endurance (distance running) and anaerobic endurance (sprinting).

This is for a decent reason. It can add significantly to complexity. For example Space Opera (a famously complex FGU game from around 1980 or so) is the only thing that comes to mind that did so and they didn't get it right.

Aerobic and anaerobic capacity aren't strongly related and modelling both of them could get very finicky indeed. Considering that we've got a sytem of "Fatigue Pts" that is mostly intended to regulate spellcasting, you're talking major changes.

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Old 08-22-2007, 02:48 PM   #16
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord Schnibb
Douglas Cole's methode seems very good for long distances. It fits what people are realistically able to do. IIRC, the average mile time for a human was around 10 minutes, but of course you would be tired so the calculation works.

The only thing that concerns me is fatigue loss from sprinting. I know a kid who had a severe hip condition when he was young and spent four years in a wheelchair. He still can't run very far (no more then one lap of a track), but he is the fastest sprinter (for his age) that anyone has ever seen. At 13 he ran 100 meters in 11.6 and 200 meters in 24. That was a while ago and I'm not sure how he's doing now, but the state record (10.6 here in NY) is clearly in sight. Theoretically, though, he shouldn't even be able to sprint for 24 seconds without going below 1/3 FP since he wouldn't have HT over ten. How would you model that in GURPS?
I don't know how munchkinable it is, but I would suggest giving him HT of (whatever) and Running Skill sufficient to get what he needs. I have Running substituting for HT rolls as a proposal.

Quote:
Also, what would you make of 400 runners that sprint a lap of the track? Ironically, slower times seem less feasible for this race because they require you to make more rolls. A fast middle school runner would have no shot at making 62 or 63 HT rolls, especiallly because they wouldn't have very high HT/Very Fit. It seems far more reasonable for a world record time of 43 seconds with HT 14 and Very Fit.

I'd try and see how the world records for 800 and 1500 (1:41 and 3:26 hold up to his but I have severe poison ivy and I'm on medication for it, which is two reasons why I don't feel like using my brain.
An 800m run is 875yd, done in 101 seconds, or Move 7.25 plus sprint bonus.

Sprinting means you have to make 101 rolls...yucky for gaming out. But in reality, it also means that we have to go from full fatigue points down to 1/3FP (figure you use all your energy) in those 101 rolls.

If the effective HT vs these rolls is 14, 15, or 16, rolling once per second, the fatigue loss will be 9, 5, and 2 FP during the 101 seconds of rolling.

So theoretically, someone with HT10, Running-15, and enough enhanced Move to get the required over-ground speed would be reduced to 50% FPs and equal that record. In practice, people who do this will need to have an extra Move point, and DX+HT = 25 (maybe don't drop fractions in this case?). Even if you do, with base Move 7, sprint move 8.4 you can do the 800m race in near-record pace with an effective HT of 14 (one more FP loss will leave you at half move, meaning this is giving it your all and having a good race), 15 (5FP loss means that you will likely have not even reached FP/2, so you'll be good to run more), or 16 (only losing 2HP durign this race, which probably means you're good to go for a few miles).
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Old 08-22-2007, 04:59 PM   #17
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Default Re: Physical Feats In GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by DouglasCole
I did a few calculations with my numbers above, and they don't really work.

I played a bit more, and came up with this, which starts to be better:

25% Encumbered move: Roll every 5 min
50% Encumbered move: Roll every 75 sec
75% Encumbered move: Roll every 20 sec
100% Encumbered move: Roll every 4 sec
120% Encumbered move ("sprinting"): Roll every second

Both "Running" and "Hiking" can replace HT for rolling's sake, both are based on HT, and I'm thinking they're Easy skills. If you have the one, you probably don't need the other in order to cover distance, but you probably would do deal with terrain, packing, gear selection, etc.
I see a problem. Let's take our average, HT10, FP10 guy, put him on a dirt track (for 100% move) and set him going on a long walk. Being a sensible chap he's not going to hurry, and will move at 25% of his base move (so move 1.25, or about 2.5 mph). He's going to lose 1FP every 10 minutes on average, so he can only walk an hour before dropping to half speed. He doesn't want to do that, so after a hour he takes a break. Now the fun starts - for every 10 minutes he walks he needs to take a 10 minute break once he's used those 6FP that keep him over half move. This means it'll take him 15 hours to travel 20 miles.

Now, seven leagues, or 21 miles, was considered a day's walk once upon a time, and that was for pretty ordinary people, healthy and fit enough to be walking from one place to another, but not noteworthy for their fitness or stamina.

Any system that's to claim realism has to let an unencumbered 'average' person walk all day without keeling over or needing more than a 10 minute break for an hour; let that person travel about 20 miles under a light load, and within say 10 hours (8 would be preferable); and let a dude carrying a heavy load travel 10 miles, be at over 1/3FP at the end, and do it without being super fit (I very much doubt the part-time soldiers I knew all had Fit or HT12/Hiking-12+, let alone both), and do it in time to make camp at the end of the day, and do it with time along the way for interludes of running, shooting, and screaming.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:06 PM   #18
DouglasCole
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert
I see a problem. Let's take our average, HT10, FP10 guy, put him on a dirt track (for 100% move) and set him going on a long walk. Being a sensible chap he's not going to hurry, and will move at 25% of his base move (so move 1.25, or about 2.5 mph). He's going to lose 1FP every 10 minutes on average, so he can only walk an hour before dropping to half speed. He doesn't want to do that, so after a hour he takes a break. Now the fun starts - for every 10 minutes he walks he needs to take a 10 minute break once he's used those 6FP that keep him over half move. This means it'll take him 15 hours to travel 20 miles.

Now, seven leagues, or 21 miles, was considered a day's walk once upon a time, and that was for pretty ordinary people, healthy and fit enough to be walking from one place to another, but not noteworthy for their fitness or stamina.

Any system that's to claim realism has to let an unencumbered 'average' person walk all day without keeling over or needing more than a 10 minute break for an hour; let that person travel about 20 miles under a light load, and within say 10 hours (8 would be preferable); and let a dude carrying a heavy load travel 10 miles, be at over 1/3FP at the end, and do it without being super fit (I very much doubt the part-time soldiers I knew all had Fit or HT12/Hiking-12+, let alone both), and do it in time to make camp at the end of the day, and do it with time along the way for interludes of running, shooting, and screaming.
I think that some sort of rule that allows a short break to make up a bunch of fatigue (but not all of it), but requires many-hour breaks for the next bit, and still more for other thresholds, would help.

so if you're walking along for a few hours, when you start to feel tired (say, you're about to drop from just over 2/3FP or 1/2FP), you can stop, and since your FP are still in that "green" zone that's not serious FP loss, you can regain them in seconds or minutes.

However, if you really exert yourself, and drop past that threshold into higher than FP/3 but lower than the point described above...well, THAT loss takes hours or days to fully recover. If you push past FP/3, you've "hit the wall," you've got lactc acid crystallizing in your muscles, and that fatigue will probably take days to weeks (two days to two weeks, given my own personal knowedge plus anecdotes from post-marathon trauma) and also risks some HP loss if you push too hard in that zone.
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Old 08-22-2007, 05:22 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rupert
I see a problem. Let's take our average, HT10, FP10 guy, put him on a dirt track (for 100% move) and set him going on a long walk. Being a sensible chap he's not going to hurry, and will move at 25% of his base move (so move 1.25, or about 2.5 mph). He's going to lose 1FP every 10 minutes on average, so he can only walk an hour before dropping to half speed.
Here's a complicated proposal that gets in the right ballpark.

You regain FP depending on how many you burn before you rest, but they recover geometrically.

What the heck?

So it takes one minute to recover your first FP, at 3 minutes you recover the second, ten minutes the third, half an hour for the fourth, an hour and a half for the fifth. And so on.

So your light walker, if he walks ten minutes and loses one FP and then rests a minute, he'll spend 9% of his total time resting.

if he pushes for 30 minutes, and loses 3FP...well, he'll regain one after one minute, another after 3, but it'll take him 10 until he's totally refreshed. He's now at 25% rest/total time.

At really hard pushes, you'll have to recover for far longer than you exert yourself. This matches what I know of reality.

Now for the next complication: scaling for FP totals larger than 10. :-)

Edit: Actually, that's easy. Instead of evey 1FP, go with every 10% of FP
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Last edited by DouglasCole; 08-22-2007 at 08:12 PM.
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Old 08-22-2007, 06:53 PM   #20
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The breath holding rules state you can hold your breath for HTx10 seconds before lossing fatigue. I was able to successfully hold my breathe for 1:21 before I started to feel the same fatigue as if I had sprinted for 15 seconds (which is how I judged I had started lossing fatigue.) This seems as though it would give me HT 8, but I easily manage a 6 minute mile and am sick less then once a year (which seems more like HT 11-12). My brother, who better fits the bill of "average" (HT 10) lasted 50 seconds before feeling the same fatigue. He certainly has HT higher then 5! Could our results have been altered by the fact the we were not underwater and the instict to breathe made us feel the effects harder?
Did you try hyperventilating first to oxygenate the blood? Breathe in and out fast three times, and then breathe in and hold it. I probably have Ht 10 and the unfit disadvantage, and my current record is 2 minutes that way.
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