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Old 01-26-2023, 03:16 PM   #1
Sigrif
 
Join Date: Sep 2022
Default [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

I am making flying character with judo and have some questions. There some of it:

When using "Using Your Legs" rules, can you use both hands and legs to grapple and throw someone using flight? What bonuses should i use?

Can you grab your enemy and lift them into the air and if you can, how? How your enemy realistically can resist your movement at all? Can you pin midair?

"Using your legs" rules say that you end your turn lying face-up, but what if you using this in the air?

How parries with leg or feet works for flying characters? Can you parry more than ones with your legs? Can you parry attacks that comes from below in any zone? Can you retreat?

For now that's it, but i'm sure there gonna be more questions

Last edited by Sigrif; 01-26-2023 at 04:31 PM. Reason: More questions
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Old 01-26-2023, 05:20 PM   #2
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

It seems like you should always be able to use your arms and your legs together, whether or not you are flying. There aren't any rules for it, but I'd probably treat extra legs as Extra Arms (Martial Arts p 114) but halve the bonus to +1.

Grabbing your enemy and carrying them off is a variant of Shoving People Around (Martial Arts p 118). Win the quick contest of ST, DX or Grappling and force them to take a step vertically. You have to be strong enough to be able to move while encumbered by your foe.

I'd treat anyone who isn't capable of flight and who doesn't have their feet on the ground as having fallen down, regardless of their current nominal posture. So a flier would be able to lift someone off the ground and have a slightly easier time of pinning them - no need for the takedown.

Fliers can retreat, and get a bonus if they change elevation when they do (Basic p 398). I'd let a flier parry with the legs and still retreat in the same turn. Fliers would still be limited to parrying low-line attacks with their legs, but if the flier is physically above the attacker, then Combat at Different Levels (Basic p 402) comes into play.
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Old 01-27-2023, 01:38 PM   #3
Sigrif
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Thanks, that what i needed. But i need to ensure some things:

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
There aren't any rules for it, but I'd probably treat extra legs as Extra Arms (Martial Arts p 114) but halve the bonus to +1.
You saying only halve the bonus to hit or all bonuses? I think, seems logical to increase ST bonus because legs have -DX but +ST.

And another thing, what about this question?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
"Using your legs" rules say that you end your turn lying face-up, but what if you using this in the air?
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Old 01-27-2023, 01:45 PM   #4
mlangsdorf
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

I would say if you're using your arms and your legs together, you halve both bonuses: +1 to hit and +1 to ST per extra leg.

Fliers characters shouldn't fall down when using their legs to grapple. That rule is inartfully written. It should probably say something close to "you can't use your legs for support" and elsewhere in the rules there would be a section about falling over if you're not supported. But I could see a normal person holding onto a dangling rope for support and grappling with their legs without falling over. Many fliers are in a similar situation and would be supported by their Flight.
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Old 01-27-2023, 03:27 PM   #5
Sigrif
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by mlangsdorf View Post
I would say if you're using your arms and your legs together, you halve both bonuses: +1 to hit and +1 to ST per extra leg.
But each extra arm give you +2 ST, why leg give less ST bonus?
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Old 01-27-2023, 06:28 PM   #6
mburr0003
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
But each extra arm give you +2 ST, why leg give less ST bonus?
I'm not mlangsdorf, but probably "no hands". Hands are potent force multipliers in grapples, feet not as much.
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Old 01-27-2023, 07:48 PM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you grab your enemy and lift them into the air and if you can, how?
Technical Grappling has a "pickup" technique for lifting people off the ground. Presumably once you do that, they move wherever you move.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
How your enemy realistically can resist your movement at all?
You mean other than using "Break Free" to terminate the grapple?

I suppose you could grab something heavy nearby (a big table? a convenient anvil) to use as an anchor, that way it's not just your own weight which would be encumbrance but also the weight of that object.

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Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you pin midair?
I believe so, you just can't use the ground as a convenient nearby surface to aid grappling.

This is something of a hole in the rules though - TG24's "Pass Limb" mentions "against a surface" but you can still use "your torso" or "your head" if there isn't a convenient surface, and there doesn't seem to be any downside do that as long as there's no contact damage.

I'm thinking if you tried to do other stuff with torso or head at LEAST a "-2 for doing two things at once" if you were maintaining Control Points via Pass Limb using those parts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
"Using your legs" rules say that you end your turn lying face-up, but what if you using this in the air?
You can still be in a 'lying' posture while in mid-air. This tech assumes you begin with your feet lower than your opponent which is why you're doing a sort of "drop kick" move to raise your feet up for a grapple.

I'd only allow avoiding this if you started at a higher elevation than the opponent. Like obviously if I'm dropping straight from above to grapple a neck using my feet, I could probably finish standing.

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Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
How parries with leg or feet works for flying characters? Can you parry more than ones with your legs? Can you parry attacks that comes from below in any zone? Can you retreat?
I don't know of any exceptions to the usual "leg parry" rules for flying characters.

The best approach I can think would be to find some way of defining those legs as being 'arms' so you can use standard rules with them.
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Old 01-28-2023, 01:47 AM   #8
Pursuivant
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
When using "Using Your Legs" rules, can you use both hands and legs to grapple and throw someone using flight?
I don't know about using your hands while flying, but some raptors use their claws to perform judo-like throws against rivals.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you grab your enemy and lift them into the air and if you can, how?
Yes. The grab & lift (and possibly drop) is another raptor trick. It's not RAW, but I'd allow a quick hoist into the air if your target weighs less than your Basic Lift, you make a successful Grapple, and they miss their Active Defense roll.

Otherwise, I'd allow a Quick Contest of ST, with penalties to the attacker for every level of Encumbrance the defender represents to the attacker's Flying Move. If the attacker wins they can take off on their next turn, carrying the defender. Obviously, you can't pick up anything that's so heavy you can't fly while carrying it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
How your enemy realistically can resist your movement at all?
Not if the attacker can do a quick Grapple & Lift which takes you into the air instantly. Otherwise, treat it as a Grapple/Escape attempt to get free before you get picked up.

Grappled victims can keep struggling while airborne. Treat it as further Grapple vs. Escape attempts, but obviously the defender falls if they break free.

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Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you pin midair?
Not unless the attacker's Arm ST and/or the Size differential is so great between attacker and defender that the attacker automatically wins any Quick Contests of Grappling vs. Escape. In that case, they can control the victim's body using just their arms (and/or legs) without having to use their body mass to pin the defender to the ground.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
"Using your legs" rules say that you end your turn lying face-up, but what if you using this in the air?
Good question.

If you're flying in a horizontal posture like Superman, more likely "using your legs" means that your flight either angles upwards or downwards or that you do a "half roll" and end with your back parallel to the ground. If you're using winged flight, you might end up in a climb or a roll to your left or right. GM's choice as to what happens, really, but some sort of Posture Change seems logical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
How parries with leg or feet works for flying characters?
Unless you have to flap your arms to fly, I'd allow normal unarmed Parry attempts using your arms while you're flying. Leg parries should only apply to attacks which you could reasonably knock away with your legs. It all depend on your flying abilities. A flyer who can hover should be able to use normal Leg Parries against attacks coming from his front hexes or from below. A flyer who can't hover and who flies in a horizontal position might only be able to use leg parries against attacks from behind and below.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you parry more than ones with your legs?
Unless you need your legs to fly, it seems fair to allow as many Leg Parries as you have legs when you're in flight.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you parry attacks that comes from below in any zone? Can you retreat?
GM's judgment. It depends on the flyer's posture while flying, and their ability to maneuver and hover. A highly agile flyer with the ability to hover, like a dragonfly or harrier, should be able to retreat. A less agile flyer which relies on big wings to stay aloft might not be able to do so.

Keep in mind that "Retreat" for a flyer might not mean backwards motion, but radical motion that trades favorable tactical position for a sudden change in flight direction, like a quick dive, climb, or turn.

There are no official rules for any of your questions because the rules for Flight and Flying Combat are very simple.

If you're a GM use common sense and imagination to visualize the action, and make up rules as necessary while making things as fair and fun as possible for your players.

If you're a player with a flying character, discuss your anticipated tactics with the GM and work out any "house rules" you will both need before play begins. Be prepared to compromise if the GM thinks that certain tasks should be harder that you believe they should be. Part of the GM's job is to challenge the players during play and to keep one player's tactics from completely upstaging the other PCs.
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Old 01-28-2023, 11:47 AM   #9
benz72
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
How your enemy realistically can resist your movement at all?
My first thought on this is to interfere with the mode of flight. E.g. grapple a wing, shoot the jet pack, Dispel Magic on the flight spell, whatever.

I think it make sense to treat those types of action as some combination of takedown and falling.
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Old 01-29-2023, 02:21 PM   #10
Varyon
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Using Judo as flier

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
When using "Using Your Legs" rules, can you use both hands and legs to grapple and throw someone using flight? What bonuses should i use?
Martial Arts: Technical Grappling suggests +0 to skill and x1.5 to ST if using two arms and two legs for a grapple. That ST bonus won't do a lot for you on a throw if not using Technical Grappling rules, however (unless you're close to the ground and opt for a damaging Judo Throw).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you grab your enemy and lift them into the air and if you can, how? How your enemy realistically can resist your movement at all?
If you've got a hold of them, I'd just treat them as encumbrance while flying... although I'd be inclined to increase their effective weight depending on how well they do on any subsequent Break Free attempt, or if they manage to grapple you (a struggling target is harder to carry around). Offhand, I'd say for a failed Break Free (a successful one means the target falls, unless the grapple is mutual), the grappled target is treated as 50% heavier unless the flyer had MoV 4+. For mutual grappling (the flyer and target are each grappling the other), treat the grappled target as 50% heavier regardless of any attempt to Break Free. If the "target" is actually grappling the flyer and the flyer isn't grappling back (say because the target had a mutual grapple and managed to break free of the flyer's grapple, or maybe the "target" actually jumped on and grappled the flyer on their own), they count as 100% heavier (twice normal weight).

A target that doesn't have access to the ground isn't going to able to grapple as effectively as one who does, however - I'd just go with a -2 or so to skill (characters who can fly under their own power ignore this - or at least do so once they've practiced enough to get Familiarity).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
Can you pin midair?
Probably not, unless you're holding the target against a wall or the ceiling - pinning largely relies on basically being able to recruit the ground to hold them against. It also relies on gravity, but if you can fly you can mimic the effects of such by just flying toward the surface you're pinning them against.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
"Using your legs" rules say that you end your turn lying face-up, but what if you using this in the air?
That's because you normally are reliant on your legs to stand, but a flyer doesn't have to stand, so you can disregard this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sigrif View Post
How parries with leg or feet works for flying characters? Can you parry more than ones with your legs? Can you parry attacks that comes from below in any zone? Can you retreat?
You should be able to Parry any attack that comes from below you with your legs, yeah - and with no reliance on legs for movement, Retreating is not an issue.


As a final note, Pyramid #3/14 has some MA styles and rules for aerial combat. An important point of note is that, against an enemy flyer, Techniques that normally knock a foe down (Judo Throw, Sweep, and Trip) instead cause the foe to lose control when used in the air.
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