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Old 12-03-2021, 07:45 AM   #31
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
It solves the original issue you posted of someone having a pile of daggers on the ground and thus picking up a dagger and throwing it on the same turn. Since they are limited to one action per turn, even if that action occurred during movement, thus they may not throw the dagger the same turn they picked it up.
Yes, it certainly does.

Now, let's think about whether Shostak's observation is a problem or not. Let's take an unarmored human as an example. There's a sword on the ground in his hex or on his preferred path. He can scoop up that sword while moving 10 hexes if he makes a 3/DX roll or 7 hexes with no roll. He can only move two hexes while drawing a sword from his belt. In neither case (without quick draw) can he attack this turn (per Skarg's suggestion).

I'm not sure that's an issue. I think drawing a weapon from the belt is more awkward than grabbing one from the ground. I can live with that.

You also mentioned, Axly, that someone discussed grabbing a weapon from the ground while engaged using the action during movement rules. I don't think I made that mistake, but if I did, it was just a brain fart. I agree that these rules only apply to unengaged persons.

I'm satisfied with Skarg's suggestion. Performing an action during movement is an action. You don't get another action during the movement phase.

Regarding the text that Henry pointed out (errata for p. 103):
Quote:
In combat, you might have the opportunity to grab a
small item. This is a “ready” action, on your DX turn,
requiring a free hand. If the item is in plain sight on the
ground, on a shelf, etc., getting it is the same as readying
a weapon. It is also “readying” to remove an item from
your pocket.
This text doesn't quite imply Skarg's reading, but it is consistent with it. If there's a ring on the floor, you can pick it up and don it as a Ready action. I'd think that you can also pick it up during movement (though as it is quite small, I might require a harder DX roll or more MA). I'm a bit ambivalent about whether you could put on the ring that same turn, but I think the above rule suggests you could.

I also think that Skarg's reading is consistent with the text of the section titled "Actions during Movement" (ITL 104). Unfortunately, some of the things mentioned there (jumping, for instance) don't seem to be Actions at all. They're just a special kind of Movement. But readying a weapon is definitely an Action and it's special in this case because it's done prior to the Action Phase. Still, you only get one Action per turn, so you've already taken your Action before that phase. You don't get another.

I use the same rules for opening a door (it costs MA 3 to open it), so you couldn't open a door and attack the same turn, but you could move through it. It's been a while since a door has mattered in combat, so I don't recall the details of my solution, but I got the mechanics from the Hexagram article on doors, amending them with the Actions while Moving rules, I think. (If I recall correctly, the article seemed to require that you end your movement next to a door and then Ready Weapon to open it, making doors a real bottleneck.)
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:09 AM   #32
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shostak View Post
Please forgive me if I’m being slow-witted, but how does it solve the problem that a figure can move more than two hexes and ready an item?
Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
You're right that even with Skarg's suggestion, we have the possibility of moving a full move (- 3 MA) when picking up a weapon, whereas we can only move 2 hexes when drawing a weapon.

So, maybe Skarg shoulda said "solves most complaints".
The main complaint, it seemed to me, was about being able to attack on the same turn you scooped up a weapon.

If there is still a concern about movement, one could also rule that you can use the -3 MA cost to ready your own weapon, again, as long as that's your action for the turn. The point of the 2-hex limit on disengaged Ready would then be that it lets you ready multiple weapons/shields and/or nicely put away what you had readied before, which the -3 MA option does not.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:16 AM   #33
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Skarg View Post
The main complaint, it seemed to me, was about being able to attack on the same turn you scooped up a weapon.

If there is still a concern about movement, one could also rule that you can use the -3 MA cost to ready your own weapon, again, as long as that's your action for the turn. The point of the 2-hex limit on disengaged Ready would then be that it lets you ready multiple weapons/shields and/or nicely put away what you had readied before, which the -3 MA option does not.
How the hell had I missed the fact that you can ready both weapon and shield with option (e)? I've been nerfing that option.

Maybe I knew it once, but for months I thought you could stow and ready one weapon.

Thanks for pointing that out.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:25 AM   #34
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Here is another rule that allows an action during movement, and thus it consumes you one action:

ITL (132) Pike rules, "If the
pole-weapon user (or other figure) moves through a hex the
pikeman could have hit (see diagram), then the pikeman may
take his attack then, during the movement phase. If he does
so, he cannot attack again in that turn.
"

I am saying Skarg's ruling is in line with the rules. I believe it both makes sense and is the intent of the rules.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:38 AM   #35
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: Durham, NC
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by phiwum View Post
How the hell had I missed the fact that you can ready both weapon and shield with option (e)? I've been nerfing that option.

Maybe I knew it once, but for months I thought you could stow and ready one weapon.

Thanks for pointing that out.
My guess is you did the same thing I did years ago: I assumed options (e) and (m) are the same but only differ in being engaged. They are not. The unengaged option (e) allows the character to move several items and put previously held items away, as well as pick up items. The engaged option (m) only allows the readying of one weapon and you must DROP what was previously in that hand(s).

BTW, that errata about picking up small items, if the player was picking up anything while engaged I would insist they are doing option (q) (ITL 103). This is significant in that if both requires them not to move and it also gives foes his rear hex-side facing in all directions. Not something you want to do unless necessary. See (ITL 106) "A figure on the ground, crawling, or bending over to pick up a weapon is considered to face “rear” in all six directions;"

Finally, I agree with you that picking up a ring or small item is not the same as snatch up a weapon. At least as far as the grab it on the run rule. I would simply not allow it but it is a GM call and your call makes sense.
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Old 12-03-2021, 08:47 AM   #36
Shostak
 
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Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: New England
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Regardless of what solution winds up being the most acceptable, I'll suggest moving and picking up/readying an item should be placed under the Options section of rules, rather than being buried in the Movment rules.
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Old 12-03-2021, 02:38 PM   #37
phiwum
 
Join Date: Jun 2008
Location: Boston area
Default Re: A puzzle regarding picking up weapons

Quote:
Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip View Post
My guess is you did the same thing I did years ago: I assumed options (e) and (m) are the same but only differ in being engaged. They are not. The unengaged option (e) allows the character to move several items and put previously held items away, as well as pick up items. The engaged option (m) only allows the readying of one weapon and you must DROP what was previously in that hand(s).
It's a good guess, but it's mistaken. I never forgot that one can move two hexes nor that one can put the currently held items away. I just forgot that you could exchange more than one item in the action.

I think I did notice that way back. Just plumb forgot in the intervening months, to the point that I stopped giving NPCs a shield if they used a missile weapon, since they'd never have a chance to ready both weapon and shield. Stupid, stupid!
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