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Old 06-05-2023, 04:43 PM   #51
Donny Brook
 
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

If a player wants tohave a character in a niche that the player is not good at, if I am GM, I try to help them without taking away their agency. Some subtle multiple choice for example, or an apparently inadvertent tip from an NPC, or what have you. It's tough when it's a niche I also suck at.
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Old 06-05-2023, 10:20 PM   #52
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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Originally Posted by sjmdw45 View Post
Last time you disagreed with this statement in a way that suggested ("hate to burst your bubble") you had missed the point and were talking about atomic actions rather than action sequences. Do you disagree now?
Of course. I disagree in that a Player who doesn't not have the skills or knowledges or talents in real life should not be disadvantaged over the one who does have them.

Not that some challenges are going to be atomic while others are more sequential in nature, I agree with that notion completely.


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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
...and possibly even "zoom out" a bit for them.
I'll admit, depending ont he social interaction and the Players involved, I have a tendency to do that as well. If they're of the social unskilled variety in real life, I find zooming a bit action and leaving it to drier descriptions is easier ont eh Players. If I ever had amateur or professional thespians, I'd probably stayed more zoomed in, but my Players trend towards tactical minis and beer and pretzels types. The kind who'd be inclined to make disparaging "funny voice" comments about thespian Players.

I only ever got to play with thespians in LARPs or the occasional White Wolf game run by actor friends. Personally I'm fine with either style, I'm there for the story more so than the "talking in character", but I can enjoy that as well.
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Old 06-06-2023, 12:54 AM   #53
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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Of course. I disagree in that a Player who doesn't not have the skills or knowledges or talents in real life should not be disadvantaged over the one who does have them.
Then you're arguing with someone who isn't in the conversation. I didn't say players have to have the same skill in real life; I said they have to know how to use the character's skills effectively.

I say A is true.

You say, "I disagree. B isn't true."

Nevertheless players who are bad at decision making (threat analysis, creative problem solving, pattern recognition, etc.) will always be at a disadvantage when playing GURPS.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 06-06-2023 at 01:04 AM.
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Old 06-06-2023, 01:57 PM   #54
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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I didn't say players have to have the same skill in real life; I said they have to know how to use the character's skills effectively.
Which is what I'm arguing is Adversarial GMing. Which is fine, but not what I prefer in the games I run. I don't require they be good at knowing how to use the skills the PC possesses as I'm fine with them making up for perceived or actual Player lacking by making skills rolls.

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Nevertheless players who are bad at decision making (threat analysis, creative problem solving, pattern recognition, etc.) will always be at a disadvantage when playing GURPS.
Only if the GM allows them to flounder. If you're willing to assist them, then no, they aren't at a disadvantage.
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Old 06-06-2023, 02:58 PM   #55
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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Which is what I'm arguing is Adversarial GMing. Which is fine, but not what I prefer in the games I run. I don't require they be good at knowing how to use the skills the PC possesses as I'm fine with them making up for perceived or actual Player lacking by making skills rolls.
The alternative is extremely unfun. It's bad enough if another player tries to tell you how to play your character; if the GM does it too, what's the point in even being there? Just have the GM play the whole module out and tell himself how much treasure you got. Rinse and repeat.

"Actually you should Wait and Step back here instead of Attacking because he's probably going to Attack you, and that will give you effectively a x4 loss ratio advantage against him for this round and next round. I know you don't get it but just trust me, Wait instead of Attacking." Feh. Don't do that. And yet, anyone who does know to do it will be 4x more effective in that fight. You MUST let players put themselves at a disadvantage by missing opportunities or there is no game for them to play.

Adversarial GMing is a completely different activity that involves the GM directly using GM fiat to counter player characters. "Fine, you chop off the dragon's head, but then the splashing blood coalesces and turns into a dozen doomchildren." Merely keeping your mouth shut so the players can play is just regular refereeing.

Last edited by sjmdw45; 06-06-2023 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 06-08-2023, 08:13 PM   #56
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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It's bad enough if another player tries to tell you how to play your character; if the GM does it too, what's the point in even being there?
That's a leap. I don't tell the Player how to run their paper man, if they ask, I'll certainly lay out options, but I won't force anything or interrupt them other than to say "Your Character knows that's dangerous/a bad idea/etc...". As I said above "they make their choices, I just try to make sure they're informed choices".

And yes, I have Players who are happier making bad choices without me saying anything, so I leave them to it, and others who much prefer getting information and being shown options.
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Old 06-08-2023, 09:34 PM   #57
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I don't tell the Player how to run their paper man, if they ask, I'll certainly lay out options...
What are we arguing for then? As long as you're not interjecting your advice unasked-for, I have no issue (except a minor pacing concern with making other players wait, in some cases, which can easily be addressed by just saying "I'll explain in more detail after the game").

Players are ALWAYS allowed to ask the GM questions.
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Old 06-09-2023, 02:03 AM   #58
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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Something I've run into GMing GURPS is with PCs having very different traits that influence reactions. For example, in an Action game maybe Alice is a Face Man with Charisma 3, Fashion Sense, and Voice, and mostly takes disadvantages that don't come with reaction penalties, or only come with situational reaction penalties (e.g. Compulsive Carousing and Overconfidence). Bob, meanwhile plays a Big Guy whose main positive in social situations is Intimidation-14, and whose Callous, Social Stigma (Criminal Record), Stubbornness, Ugly, and a -5 point Odious Personal Habit.

Alice's reactions are at somewhere between +4 and +10 (depending on whether she's talking to a seasoned prude or a young party-animal). Meanwhile Bob's reactions suffer from at least a -4 modifier, probably worse if people have experienced his Callous-ness and/or know about his Social Stigma. And compared to the situations you can get in a Dungeon Fantasy game (if, say, a Nymph and an Ogre are adventuring together), this could be considered a mild example. But it leads to some weird situations, where an NPC has a Very Good reaction to Alice but a Bad reaction to Bob. In D&D, the character who chose Charisma as their dump stat can just keep their mouth shut, but GURPS disadvantages that impose reaction penalties tend to be explicitly things that can't be avoided that way—or else represent an inability to keep your mouth shut even when that would be wise.

You can hand-wave this—have Bob get some dirty looks but not penalize Alice for the company she keeps as long as she waves people off with "don't worry, Bob's a great guy when you get to know him". But that's not obviously the best approach, and GURPS rules seem frustratingly vague on this subject, which is somewhat surprising given how often the rules reference rolls for groups reacting to individuals rather than the other way around. What do people do here? Or if you haven't encountered this situation, what would you do when it came up?
I think handwaving it is pretty natural.
Imagine the most charismastic person you can.

And now imagine that person, irl, knocking at your door, after wading through sewage, and treading that stuff into your precious shag carpet.

Would that not incur a reaction penalty from you? Even if you loved that person?
Soaked in excrement, etc.

In the Alice and Bob example:
As a man, I don't really care about 'callous bricks' in fact, I like them.
I would definitely react to that trait unless it's the norm, and more likely in a positive than negative way.
Especially if he's not doing anything threatening. (The Odious Habit might get me tho)

Then, if Alice is also beautiful/hot, etc...then while I would initially perhaps be a bit taken aback if he's THAT much of a gnarled gorilla, but walking around with a hot chick?
Guy must either be doing something right, or something wrong (like coercing her)

I would treat NPCs similarily, depending on their personality, the reactions could even be somewhat inverted.

Looks for example, NPC could be *extremely* judgemental against handsome people.
So barring some supernatural effect of the 'face man' advantages the character might have, that could make Alice more repulsive to some NPC than Bob.

The modifiers as set as they are...I mostly use for randos and combat morale/willingness.
And Bob could score positively there, under the right circumstance, too.

Or negatively, of course. "I hate these gorilla looking mothers" says prince Babyface as he brandishes his rapier. "Prepare to die!"

P.S.:
The sewer example, is of course, to diminish Alice.
If she showed up with a completely disgusting troglodyte then...yeah...that could lower the opinion of her.
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Last edited by Lovewyrm; 06-09-2023 at 02:07 AM.
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Old 06-09-2023, 02:08 AM   #59
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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What are we arguing for then? As long as you're not interjecting your advice unasked-for, I have no issue.
There is a fine line between "I'm going to give you additional information because I think you may be misunderstanding something that would be clear to your character" and "I'm going to tell you what you should do".
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Old 06-09-2023, 09:27 AM   #60
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Default Re: PCs with very different reaction modifiers

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There is a fine line between "I'm going to give you additional information because I think you may be misunderstanding something that would be clear to your character" and "I'm going to tell you what you should do".
More to the point though is that knowing when to ask for help is an aspect of player skill (Dunning-Krueger effect comes up all the time in gaming with bad players) and yet telling the player they are playing poorly is definitely on the far side of that line. A player who is so bad that they don't know how bad they are will be at a disadvantage compared even to one who knows that they're bad and asks for help.

All of my mental examples are D&D examples ("don't waste your 9th level slot on upcasting Fireball! In the first combat of the dungeon, no less"), not DFRPG, but that's because my DFRPG players are quite good.
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