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Old 04-28-2022, 05:05 AM   #21
sir_pudding
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

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Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
But they don't stay in range, or it wouldn't be a retreat.
Yes because these are slips while parrying or dodging in GURPS terms.
Quote:
Sliding around is dodging, weaving, not retreating.
Well, maybe 'technically' it is a retreat, but I don't know how common it is to really think that way.
It's still game mechanically a "retreat" just with a reduced bonus.
Quote:
"And a nice retreat from Mike Tyson!"
"What did you thay?! Mike Tython never retreath!"
Real world martial arts don't use GURPS rules terms of art. They also say that boxers "block" punches, but last time I checked shields aren't permitted in the sport.

But in some styles, full backwards retreats and advances are common. The back-and-forth of sport fencing is probably the most obvious, since it's in line, but most armed fighting incorporates them to some extent. For example nearly every spear or polearm form's basic defense against an attacker with a shorter weapon is to drop the point to a hanging guard and retreat backwards.
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Old 04-28-2022, 05:20 AM   #22
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

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Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
Yes because these are slips while parrying or dodging in GURPS terms.
It's still game mechanically a "retreat" just with a reduced bonus.

Real world martial arts don't use GURPS rules terms of art. They also say that boxers "block" punches, but last time I checked shields aren't permitted in the sport.

But in some styles, full backwards retreats and advances are common. The back-and-forth of sport fencing is probably the most obvious, since it's in line, but most armed fighting incorporates them to some extent. For example nearly every spear or polearm form's basic defense against an attacker with a shorter weapon is to drop the point and retreat backwards.
It seems then the entire thing then doesn't matter, especially considering that Kromm post about 'just giving an inch' and the step doesn't even matter unless the GM wants it to matter.
But also at the same time having obstacles as the limiter.

Which doesn't make much sense to me.
Why would an obstacle ever matter if this so called retreat can just be a small shift and the fighters could just stay in the same hex orbiting one another.

Eternally out of range, but also in range.
Why even do the step then?
"I'm at trained fighter and will always keep up the most optimal spacing"
"No the room is full of clutter"
"That's fine, I'm only moving an inch, the inch that matters. Now give me my bonuses on defense, not my fault GURPS does 1yard hexes"

Does not sit right with me.
But maybe I'm just sore because now my scoff target monkey is no more.
It was actual fighting all along.
Grmml...hmmlrhgl....
No wonder evaluation goes under the wheels of the bus if this kind of stuff is all 'realistic'.
Which if it were a proper retreat, wouldn't be.

Cause yeah, boxers tend to keep their guard up, to block even though they footwork around back and forth.
That's because they are not leaving the attack range, merely keeping 'boxing range' because otherwise it's a clinch or whatever.

And now I'm inclined to think of fencing in the same way.
You're trying to sell me it as a retreat, a back an forth, 'steps'.
But now I just consider it fighting spacing.

This entire setup does not sit right with me. This 'yeah it's a retreat, but i actually didn't move very far" thing.

Edit:
Regarding the fencing.
Without hexes. How could fencing ever exist?
"I only move 1 inch away as my step, it's small but that's 1 inch out of range of my enemy"
"I close the gap and advance an inch and strike"

Or do fencers have to do the big back and forth by law?

"No you can't move an inch, you have to take a real step backwards so you can back yourself against the wall, please stop retreating"
"No...we're not playing on hexes where I'd be forced to bounce back and forth a yard, we're playing simple combat, and I'm only moving the important inch, just enough to be safe and we will do this forever"

There's just something that doesn't gel with me going for a retreat that isn't one. Somthing about this is stupid, it might be I, but I stand by this.
There is something awkward about this. I'd rather see a retreat as moving out of range of the attacker, how else would pressure ever build up?

If you already share the hex, or the simplified mindspace of the battlefield, how do you push forward. You're already here!
It's just that you foe 'shifted' a little.

Last edited by Lovewyrm; 04-28-2022 at 05:38 AM.
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Old 04-28-2022, 06:13 AM   #23
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

The hex you occupy is relevant to represent the general space you are controlling. However it also produces very silly results if you try to treat it as a literal representation of exactly quantized one yard movements in exactly one second time. Fighters aren't standing exactly in the middle of a one yard hex nor do they freeze while other fighters teleport from hex center to hex center during their turns. These are abstraction of dynamic actions in free space.
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Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
It seems then the entire thing then doesn't matter, especially considering that Kromm post about 'just giving an inch' and the step doesn't even matter unless the GM wants it to matter.
Game mechanically, you don't get the bonus unless you move a full hex. This doesn't mean your character necessarily moved exactly 36 inches, it means they shifted enough so that their relative positional zones of control changed by about that.

Quote:
But also at the same time having obstacles as the limiter.
Well, yes because you can't effectively control the space occupied by a table even if you technically can squeeze into the edge of it.
.
Quote:
Why even do the step then?
In order to get a bonus on defenses, you need to significantly surrender some space.

You also seen to consistently be ignoring Sideslips and Slips (Martial Arts p. 120) as retreat options. These still require a yard of movement, but you don't end up farther from your opponent than you started.

Last edited by sir_pudding; 04-28-2022 at 06:51 AM.
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Old 04-28-2022, 06:48 AM   #24
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sir_pudding View Post
The hex you occupy is relevant to represent the general space you are controlling. However it also produces very silly results if you try to treat it as a literal representation of exactly quantized one yard movements in exactly one second time. Fighters aren't standing exactly in the middle of a one yard hex nor do they freeze while other fighters teleport from hex center to hex center during their turns. These are abstraction of dynamic actions in free space.
I'll just write it off as Schroedingers retreat, especially without a battle map.
Cause fist fighters can apparently move like cats, because that's what they do IRL, since it's dynamic and not nailed to a spot.

While at the same time yielding significant space, to get the bonus but it's not far enough to be silly, etc.

I still find it silly, though. It's not a retreat because 'realitistic footwork' but it's a significant yielding of space, but it's still close so it's not fleas jumping around, and it's in attack range really, but also not because it's a retreating defense, etc, where everyone slides around dynamically.

In other words: As a roleplayer, I am miffed, because I can't really say anything against such play, and it also rolls over things like evaluates since everyone remains close and striking twice, which can also be explained as realistic (machine gun punches, sewing machine knife stabs, etc), and, potentially harms the opponent more (often).

Makes me wonder why lulls and co should ever be used either. Seems like the best way is to rock em sockem robots this game. Where everyone vibrates around one another, to retreat and attack every second.

Which I won't do, but this is an open forum where the books are the baseline and not my view on roleplay.

I can't comment on Martial Arts.
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Old 04-28-2022, 06:57 AM   #25
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

The lulls rule is for tournaments, not life or death fights.

Evaluate, unless you houserule something to give it teeth, is usually of marginal utility. It's useful, however, in situations where you don't want to just attack. For example, when sizing up an opponent before hostilities start.

But if it really bothers you, don't retreat.
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Old 04-28-2022, 07:05 AM   #26
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

The art of stepping backward and forward is also taught in my karate style (gojuryu shoreikan). We do have an entire kiso kumite on that purpose (kiso kumite dai ion) as well as several other exercises (wapu, hojoundo dai ni, etc.).

It is crucial to be able to get in reach when striking and to immediately get out of reach when defending. This is the whole purpose of footwork (suri-ashi, yuri-ashi and so on)...

Now, as said by Kromm, you do not necessarily have to cover a full yard. But, for gaming purpose, it is more convenient to use a full hexe because doing so allows to simulate the possibility for the attacker to force the defender who retreats while dodging to go backward and, eventually, to corner him.

Did you see some Mike Tyson’s combats? He was so good with dodge without stepping back that he almost systematically forced his opponents to go backward until they were cornered. Which means that they did step back while dodging or parrying.

Last edited by Gollum; 04-28-2022 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 04-28-2022, 07:22 AM   #27
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Evaluation shouldn't just be before a fight, but it's quickly being established that this IS rockem sockem robots.

As for the footwork. I will stand by calling it silly.
If I am a fist fighter and you go out of reach, into reach, out of reach, into reach, while I stand there motionless, you will look silly.

And I am talking about REACH here. Not boxing footwork with your hands up because you're still in reach. If boxers footworked out of reach then they wouldn't need to block.

But out of reach, where if I attacked from where I stand, I wouldn't be able to hit you.

Otherwise it's just a regular defense dodge or block, at least to me.

And you'd laugh too if Mike Tyson or Kaihi Senshi Ashihayaimaru warped back and forth out of striking range every second.
And that's why I think I'll return to mocking the thug.
If he's 'really just hovering around me' without actually retreating, then he's not retreating, and it's just flavor (which, in hindsight, is a bit ironic since I'm pressing the roleplaying angle) and he doesn't get any special bonuses.

And I'll treat it like combat whiffs in Morrowind, where you have to imagine that the combatants are doing all sorts of fancy dodging maneuvers that were not feasible to implement in that limited game engine.

Or the dance of combat of D&D where in those six seconds the combatants weave and dodge too.

And yeah I did see Tyson fight, but that's reallife, in GURPS as it is like that, there is no pressing forward because you're already THERE.

If the thug isn't actually moving away silly nilly so I can laugh and taunt.
Then he's close. And if he's close, then where would I need to push to to attack? Nowhere, I'm still in range cause so is he!
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Old 04-28-2022, 07:23 AM   #28
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
The karateka can also use such unfashionable options as Evaluate and Feint (or both) to boost the chance of his attack landing.
Thank you for that very good note. I was wondering: while is there a specific rule for feints because there is the deceptive attack, which can be used to simulate it? The answer is there: it is precisely very useful for that kind of situation.
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Old 04-28-2022, 07:26 AM   #29
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

Eh, GURPS movement in general is unrealistic, but that's because it needs to be gameable. How many people do you know that can go from standing still to being 5 yards away in a single second, just by starting to run? And don't forget that being attacked somehow gives you an extra yard per second.

If you dislike the way it works, houserules are certainly an option. Make it take time to get up to full speed - going from zero to a jog isn't too difficult, so a decent option is to let characters move under the normal rules at jogging speed (0.6*Move), but to get up to running (full Move) they need to jog for a second first, and to get up to sprinting (1.2*Move) they need to jog for a second, then run for a second (so 1 second at 0.6*Move, then 1 second at 1*Move, and from then forward you can run at 1.2*Move). Make the Retreat burn up the Step, and either have it be impossible for Move, or require the direction of the Retreat be backward relative to their movement for the round (in which case the "Retreat" actually just represents coming up short, rather than jogging forward and then hopping back).
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Old 04-28-2022, 07:29 AM   #30
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Default Re: Questions while reading rules more accurately...

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Originally Posted by Lovewyrm View Post
As for the footwork. I will stand by calling it silly. If I am a fist fighter and you go out of reach, into reach, out of reach, into reach, while I stand there motionless, you will look silly.
You will mostly be enforced to defend yourself without the least opportunity to hit me. Thus, even if you are very good at defending, you will eventually be hit.
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