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Old 04-29-2022, 10:04 AM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

The rules for Weapon Adaptation say one skill must default to the other at no worse than -4 and use the same number of hands... however there's an exception for cinematic campaigns, where anything goes. Honestly, I'm inclined to allow this for Broadsword and Two-Handed Sword, just because the character point tax for being skilled in both one-handed and two-handed use of a katana, longsword, etc. is just too punishing. And I think the game mechanics should work fine, since some weapons (notably spears) already support both one-handed and two-handed use with a single skill. But it does seem to raise a few questions, particularly about certain techniques.

For example, Reverse Grip has different defaults for one-handed and two-handed weapons. If you have Weapon Adaptation (Two-Handed Sword to Broadsword) [1] and Reverse Grip (Broadsword) (A) Broadsword-2 [4], would you roll against Broadsword-2 to use Reverse Grip two-handed, or could you recalculate your technique level from the improved default to roll against flat Broadsword? Could you learn Sweep (Broadsword) without first taking Skill Adaptation? (Presumably this would limit you to using the technique with two-handed grips.) Finally, Dual-Weapon Defense is in some sense two techniques, since the one-handed and two-handed mechanics are different. Assuming an appropriate Weapon Adaptation perk, would Dual-Weapon Defense (Broadsword) also work two-handed. Or conversely, would Dual-Weapon Defense (Two-Handed Sword) work one-handed?

(I think these are the main techniques where questions like this arise, but there might be others, feel free to point them out.)
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:00 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

I would go with your first assumption:

Weapon Adaptation (Two-Handed Sword to Broadsword) [1] and Reverse Grip (Broadsword) (A) Broadsword-2 [4], roll against Broadsword-2 to use Reverse Grip two-handed.

This is from thinking about my experience fencing with different weapons, but it would be, SHOULD be, a little more difficult in real life, depending on the weapon.

A "greatsword" is pretty big/long and trying to hold it in reverse grip with one hand would require more ST than in two hands.

But your main assumption is what I would go with.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:11 AM   #3
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
I
A "greatsword" is pretty big/long and trying to hold it in reverse grip with one hand would require more ST than in two hands.
I think he's thinking more of a Late Katana of a fechtbuch longsword (or maybe even a Force Sword). Using a zweihander and a katzbalger with the same skill probably should be prevented.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:18 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

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Originally Posted by Fred Brackin View Post
I think he's thinking more of a Late Katana of a fechtbuch longsword (or maybe even a Force Sword). Using a zweihander and a katzbalger with the same skill probably should be prevented.
either way, I would allow it with the added ST penalty.

I zweihander held with one hand is not easy to wield, but with enough ST you can, and therefor should be able to use it with the broadsword skill.

Many fantasy characters use "giant swords" one handed, they def have the weapon adaptation (two handed to broadsword).
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:22 AM   #5
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

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Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
I would go with your first assumption:

Weapon Adaptation (Two-Handed Sword to Broadsword) [1] and Reverse Grip (Broadsword) (A) Broadsword-2 [4], roll against Broadsword-2 to use Reverse Grip two-handed.

This is from thinking about my experience fencing with different weapons, but it would be, SHOULD be, a little more difficult in real life, depending on the weapon.

A "greatsword" is pretty big/long and trying to hold it in reverse grip with one hand would require more ST than in two hands.

But your main assumption is what I would go with.
To be clear, I'm not assuming that Weapon Adaptation (Two-Handed Sword to Broadsword) is for using a Zweihänder one-handed, I'm assuming that perk would let you roll against Broadsword to use a Zweihänder two-handed. For Reverse Grip specifically, it seems like doing it two-handed should be significantly easier. The argument I can see for rolling against Broadsword-2 to perform Reverse Grip two-handed is that putting points in Reverse Grip (Broadsword) represents practicing fancy-pants one-handed tricks and training those isn't necessarily very helpful for quickly getting the same effect through less showy two-handed methods.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:30 AM   #6
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
To be clear, I'm not assuming that Weapon Adaptation (Two-Handed Sword to Broadsword) is for using a Zweihänder one-handed, I'm assuming that perk would let you roll against Broadsword to use a Zweihänder two-handed. ...
Ah, in that case, I would not do it that way then.

Broadsword skill is a poor name for the skill since its really just One-handed Sword skill. Which is what I would name it as in my games too.

the perk means:

A weapons to B skill.

Using A weapons in B skill.

Broadsword skill is "Any balanced, 2- to 4-foot blade wielded in one hand".

Fighting with a sword in one hand is different from with two hands, though the techniques can be similar.


EDIT::

Personally, I make another weapon skills into techniques you can buy off. So if you take Broadsword as your main skill then Two-handed sword becomes a Hard (or average if you want) technique with the same penalty as defaulting (-4).

Last edited by zoncxs; 04-29-2022 at 11:36 AM.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:56 AM   #7
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

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Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
either way, I would allow it with the added ST penalty.

I zweihander held with one hand is not easy to wield, but with enough ST you can, and therefor should be able to use it with the broadsword skill.

Many fantasy characters use "giant swords" one handed, they def have the weapon adaptation (two handed to broadsword).
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
Ah, in that case, I would not do it that way then.

Broadsword skill is a poor name for the skill since its really just One-handed Sword skill. Which is what I would name it as in my games too.

the perk means:

A weapons to B skill.

Using A weapons in B skill.

Broadsword skill is "Any balanced, 2- to 4-foot blade wielded in one hand".

Fighting with a sword in one hand is different from with two hands, though the techniques can be similar.


EDIT::

Personally, I make another weapon skills into techniques you can buy off. So if you take Broadsword as your main skill then Two-handed sword becomes a Hard (or average if you want) technique with the same penalty as defaulting (-4).
All this is contrary to what Martial Arts says, which is that if you have high enough ST, you can wield a normally two-handed weapon one-handed, and you must switch to using the appropriate one-handed skill, no perk required. The only perks you might need are either version of the Huge Weapons perk*, either to boost effective ST or to deal with the weapon's grip being too big for your hands.

* These listed along side each other in Power-Ups 2, I think a lot of sources that have something called "Huge Weapons" only have one or the other version of the perk.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:57 AM   #8
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

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Originally Posted by zoncxs View Post
either way, I would allow it with the added ST penalty.

I zweihander held with one hand is not easy to wield, but with enough ST you can, and therefor should be able to use it with the broadsword skill.
From conversations with Kromm many years ago thsi is what happens, no Perk necessary.

As I believe Michael explained later he's wanting to use the same skill one-handed or two-handed.

The example of weapon adaptation that i've seen was a man who used Thrown Weapon (Axe) to throw a very large bowie knife like an axe gripping it by the handle rather than the point and having it stick into the target edge first like an axe.

I beleive that ina realistic setting specialized situations such as that is what Weapon adaptation is for.
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Old 04-29-2022, 11:58 AM   #9
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

The approach of treating Two-Handed Sword as a technique of Broadsword makes a lot of sense, but I'm trying to figure out the RAW way to do this.
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Old 04-29-2022, 12:04 PM   #10
Fred Brackin
 
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Default Re: [Martial Arts] Weapon Adaptation (Broadsword to Two-Handed Sword or vice versa)

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
The approach of treating Two-Handed Sword as a technique of Broadsword makes a lot of sense, but I'm trying to figure out the RAW way to do this.
I do not believe there is a RAW way to do this that does not depend on GM's discretion. Allow a Weapon adaptation Perk or House Rule defaults as Techniques mostly
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