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Old 06-22-2021, 09:06 AM   #1
Michael Thayne
 
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Default [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

Yesterday I started thinking about how to convert blocking Gate spells from GURPS Magic into defensive buffs, and the more I think about it the more the rule against sorcerous Blocking spells looks. It's not like the Powers system couldn't possibly support such spells: you just need something like Emergencies Only, either with Reflexive or just a note saying to use the rules for Power Defense. Similarly, it seems like the rule against Blocking spells rules out a sorcerous spell based on Warp (Blink) (or Warp (Blink Only) from Psionic Powers). But there's a loophole: the main Sorcery book says that sorcery's answers to blocking spells is defensive buffs. So it seems like there's no reason a sorcerer couldn't Afflict Warp (Blink Only) or Insubstantiality (Reflexive, Unconscious Only, Uncontrollable). This honestly just seems like a very strange rule! Can anyone see a rationale for it that I'm missing?
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Old 06-22-2021, 10:13 AM   #2
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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Can anyone see a rationale for it that I'm missing?
Possibly relevant is the fact Sorcery spells are built off Alternate Abilities, or Modular Abilities if improvising, and those usually don't allow you to swap between them when it isn't your turn. I can certainly see justification to be able to do so, of course, but perhaps the author(s) of GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery didn't want to rock the boat too much there.
And I'd be hesitant to allow a Sorcery spell to grant someone an active ability like Warp (Blink Only or otherwise). It seems more appropriate to have it grant more passive abilities, or at least abilities that aren't momentary - giving someone a flaming sword is fine, giving someone the ability to summon a flaming sword not so much. That's more a flavor thing than a game balance thing, however.
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:26 AM   #3
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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Possibly relevant is the fact Sorcery spells are built off Alternate Abilities, or Modular Abilities if improvising, and those usually don't allow you to swap between them when it isn't your turn. I can certainly see justification to be able to do so, of course, but perhaps the author(s) of GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery didn't want to rock the boat too much there.
That might be some of it, but I do feel like the conversions Catch Missile and Reflect Gaze in Sorcery: Protection and Warning Spells sort of ate away at that logic. They're basically Indefinite spells where the benefit is "gain the ability to do what the standard magic spell does". Though maybe I'm just having trouble loving those builds because I never liked Indefinite spells in the first place.

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And I'd be hesitant to allow a Sorcery spell to grant someone an active ability like Warp (Blink Only or otherwise). It seems more appropriate to have it grant more passive abilities, or at least abilities that aren't momentary - giving someone a flaming sword is fine, giving someone the ability to summon a flaming sword not so much. That's more a flavor thing than a game balance thing, however.
This is fair. Though it leaves me wondering how to convert Blink Other, Phase Other, and Timeslip Other. Maybe make them spells with Indefinite duration and Affects Others? Kinda weird though.
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:30 AM   #4
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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Possibly relevant is the fact Sorcery spells are built off Alternate Abilities, or Modular Abilities if improvising, and those usually don't allow you to swap between them when it isn't your turn.
True, but the sorceror that wants to have a blocking spell (or other defense) ready simply needs to pay for having 2/N spells up. That's true even of a constant defense like DR.

Or 3/N -- as Merlin in the second Amber series points out, a good sorceror has one attack, one defense, and one escape spell ready at all times.
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Old 06-22-2021, 12:13 PM   #5
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

I've wondered about this also. I do understand the initial reasoning, but blocking spells are too useful.

I am thinking of allowing blocking spells for an additional 2 FP. How does this sound?
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Old 06-22-2021, 12:23 PM   #6
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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Originally Posted by Michael Thayne View Post
This is fair. Though it leaves me wondering how to convert Blink Other, Phase Other, and Timeslip Other. Maybe make them spells with Indefinite duration and Affects Others? Kinda weird though.
Are those spells that grant the target the ability to Warp/Jump/TimeJump, or are they spells that force the target to do so once? It sounds like they'd be the latter, in which case that's just Affliction with Fixed Duration and enough Reduced Duration to only last a moment - you cast it, the target vanishes (going wherever/whenever you sent them), and that's the end of it.
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Old 06-22-2021, 12:31 PM   #7
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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Are those spells that grant the target the ability to Warp/Jump/TimeJump, or are they spells that force the target to do so once? It sounds like they'd be the latter, in which case that's just Affliction with Fixed Duration and enough Reduced Duration to only last a moment - you cast it, the target vanishes (going wherever/whenever you sent them), and that's the end of it.
Crucially, though, these spells can be cast in response to an attack on the target. What you propose doesn't allow modeling that. (Also, the way Afflictions work, I don't think you can claim Reduced Duration as a limitation for the Jumper/Warp builds, though it would be valid for Insubstantiality.)
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Old 06-22-2021, 12:50 PM   #8
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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Crucially, though, these spells can be cast in response to an attack on the target. What you propose doesn't allow modeling that. (Also, the way Afflictions work, I don't think you can claim Reduced Duration as a limitation for the Jumper/Warp builds, though it would be valid for Insubstantiality.)
If it needs to be cast in response to an attack, you'd need to modify Sorcery to allow for Blocking spells. If this Indefinite Duration thing (I don't have the Protection and Warding Spells book) is what it sounds like, where you basically put a spell on someone that triggers when they're attacked but then is done with, I'd be fine with that as an Affliction - it's single use and reactionary, not granting the character free reign over some new ability for the duration.

As for Reduced Duration, I'm really not clear on exactly how Affliction (Warp) is meant to work as a sort of "Teleport Other" ability. Normally, Afflicting someone with an Advantage would mean they gain said Advantage for the Duration. The "Teleport Other" variant is one where you hit the target with the Affliction and they immediately teleport where you designate. Does Duration apply there - that is, if it lasts 3 minutes, are you able to just have them warping all over the place during those 3 minutes? How does this interact with the need to concentrate for a time and pay FP when warping - are those ignored, does it force the target to concentrate and pay FP, does the original caster concentrate and pay FP, or what?
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Old 06-22-2021, 07:13 PM   #9
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

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If it needs to be cast in response to an attack, you'd need to modify Sorcery to allow for Blocking spells.
I should have chosen my words more carefully—in my mind, if the sorcerous version of a blocking spell can't be cast in response to an attack, the next best thing would be if it's in some sense useable in response to an attack.

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If this Indefinite Duration thing (I don't have the Protection and Warding Spells book) is what it sounds like, where you basically put a spell on someone that triggers when they're attacked but then is done with, I'd be fine with that as an Affliction - it's single use and reactionary, not granting the character free reign over some new ability for the duration.
"Indefinite" spells weren't introduced in Protection and Warning Spells. They're a concept that exists in GURPS Thaumatology: Sorcery, explained on p. 8 under "Maintaining Spells". Though what you're suggesting, Afflictions that provide a beneficial advantage that works once, are an interesting idea—for things like Warp, you could model it with Delay, Triggered, less sure if that makes sense for things like Insubstantiality.

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As for Reduced Duration, I'm really not clear on exactly how Affliction (Warp) is meant to work as a sort of "Teleport Other" ability. Normally, Afflicting someone with an Advantage would mean they gain said Advantage for the Duration. The "Teleport Other" variant is one where you hit the target with the Affliction and they immediately teleport where you designate. Does Duration apply there - that is, if it lasts 3 minutes, are you able to just have them warping all over the place during those 3 minutes? How does this interact with the need to concentrate for a time and pay FP when warping - are those ignored, does it force the target to concentrate and pay FP, does the original caster concentrate and pay FP, or what?
From B36: "Advantages with instantaneous effects affect the target once, as soon as he is hit, if he fails his HT roll; e.g., Warp immediately teleports the subject." Though I'm not sure this rule has been strictly followed elsewhere. I think PK somewhere discussed the possibility of making exceptions.
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Old 06-23-2021, 10:52 AM   #10
Michael Thayne
 
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Default Re: [Sorcery] Why no sorcerous Blocking spells?

Looking into the Insubstantiality thing: I don't think there's a RAW-based way to make Insubstantiality "instantaneous", but it looks like you could make the duration "1 second, starting whenever the subject would be hit by an attack".
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