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Old 06-20-2021, 04:01 AM   #21
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Hiring an army regular for half a year costs around $2,500 so the $1k in starting gear sounds about right.

A Mercenary captain has been at the job for around a decade so give him 10% of his accumulated pay in gear. That's then $5k to $13k in equipment.

A recruit will at best get standard weapons, chain armor, and such.
Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks Henry. :-)

10% of accumulated pay in gear is one reasonable opinion. I am trying to get more of these opinions so I can form a baseline. That I then can adjust to fit my campaign.

But this would translate to a Mercenary captain with a 10% savings in his gear and 10 years on the job. I would assume some years before that at lower ranks, so I will go with 10k.
He could have a Fineplate or a Warhorse (about 5k), and then 3 points of enchantments and a very fine broadsword.
Doesn't seem strange in the least to me. I would probably have expected more, maybe closer to 15k of equipment or even more if he saved his pension as military gear. But he might have invested the rest in a manor back home.
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Old 06-20-2021, 04:16 AM   #22
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

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Originally Posted by Peter von Kleinsmid View Post

In most of the TFT campaigns I've run and experienced, I would say that fine and magic weapons tend to be rare, even if a soldier could theoretically save up and afford one. The more experienced, wealthy and/or noble a fighter is, the more likely they may have more expensive and powerful equipment...
I think that many GM's have a picture of what a recruit, soldier, squire, knight, hero of the realm should carry around. And a lot of GM's are afraid of some sort of Maunty Haul campaign. So they set an arbitrary gear/loot level on their NPC, and then they don't change prices, but instead try to invent reasons as to why those prices aren't affecting the world like they should.

I want to change that and work from a baseline that is reasonable from the prices and wages in the book. And if those prices mean that everyone walks around with a +5 fine plate, then I know I have to do something about either wages or prices, and not try to fix it by saying there is a waiting list for fine plate, but for some reason, the prices are still the same. Or when we declare that Fineplate prices are really 10 times higher due to local demand, I want to know that, especially when one of the PC starts a smithy and invest like 3 talent points into Master Armourer. And then proceeds to make a **** load of money and decide to invest that into something where there isn't a shortage.

I like it when the rules have consequences in the world. If portals are easy to make and maintain, there should be a portal in every village, and trade prices for foreign goods should be about as cheap as goods from the village next over. And when I know the consequences for the rules on the world, I can start to adjust those rules, or introduce reasons as to why portals aren't that common.

it is just two opposite directions to come from when solving a problem, and I want to come from both directions. I have no trouble with the direction of the setting since I run my own campaign world and can do what I want. But the rules direction, what needs to be changed there? And we can all have an opinion on that since we do share the RAW/RAI.
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Old 06-20-2021, 05:13 AM   #23
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

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Originally Posted by Steve Plambeck View Post
As a player, I had a wizard (starting 32 point wizard, and a commoner) who rose to become a "special assistant" to the Court Wizard of one of the larger, richer, and more powerful military empires in our highly detailed and developed campaign world....

...I don't think it would have been nearly as much fun if everyone had been packing enchanted armor, fine weapons and all that.
I don't think it would have made much difference to be honest, gear level is relative. Better equipped PC's means better equipped enemies or slightly stronger enemies. The campaign would have been as fun either way.

What would have been better most likely would have been the consistency of the world. Either you changed prices implicitly or you handwaved a bunch of stuff. Either way, if you didn't do explicit changes then you muddled through. And that is what I want to avoid. I want to know what is what, so when I tell my players that a magic +1 sword enchantment costs about X$, then that will be the standard price. When they have saved up X$ and want to buy it, I don't want to tell them, oh but that is the listed price, but no one ever gets to buy it at that price, in reality, it is 10 times as high. Or even worse, when they are about to buy it, they realize the price is half that, so they could have bought it a long time ago, or the waiting list is ten years.

Sure I can always give reasons as to why the price of that sword is much higher temporarily, or locally or at this time of the year, etc. But as soon as the price change is permanent, then it should be reflected in the official price list. And if I devalue the silver pieces, then that also means that wages and living expenses should be different, and not just certain prices of certain things that bug me.

Let's make an example:
Assumption; for every 10 armorers there is one master armorer.
A master armorer spends half of his time making master-crafted weapons.

This means that an armorer can make 60 sabers per 20 weeks.
A master armorer makes 1 very fine Saber per 20 weeks and also 40 normal sabers.
(Armorer can make 150$ worth of weapons and armors per week, A m.armorer 200$ including the very fine Saber at 1000$ instead of normal price of 50$.)
This will give us a ratio of 640 sabers to one very fine saber in the world.
Are the assumptions reasonable?
Are the rules reasonable?
Is that the ratio I want in my world?

Maybe master-crafted weapons are so important that no Master Armorer would ever have to craft normal weapons, since he is only 33% faster than an ordinary armorer and they are 10 times as plentiful. So we get the ratio of 1 very fine saber for every 300 normal ones, if the master crafters only do the good stuff.

Maybe a 1 point talent is not a big investment at all, at IQ 10? It is about as cheap as a 1 point mundane talent. Isn't Armorer more important than a handyman? If so, maybe Armorer is more of a normal blacksmith, and they usually do a lot of stuff besides weapons. Sure they could make a saber, but it wouldn't be especially good. So maybe Blacksmith sabers, or shoddy sabers made in bulk by a Master Armorer (still not a costly talent - 2 more points and IQ 12, comparable to business sense that almost all shopkeepers and traders have according to the rules) are not the standard armament of better soldiers.
Maybe the ratio of people who makes weapons are more 50/50, half are made by blacksmiths and are considered conscript basic weapons and practice swords. But real soldiers bring a real weapon to the field.

So we have a 50/50 ratio of armorers and master armorers. Most armorers are making horseshoes for a living after all.
Now we have a ratio of 1 to 30. Is that reasonable? OR should it be 1:1 because the demand is such that most people won't buy a basic and shoddy saber when most sword-carrying people have better weapons? That would mean that most blacksmiths spend almost no time making sabers, because most people that need them want the best they can afford, and other people think the sabers are too expensive since they don't even know how to use them.

What about a castle lord with a garrison of 50 soldiers. How long would it take to give all of them a balanced saber (price x10)? Taking into account that the castle smith probably has an apprentice that helps out with the easy stuff, you probably could make it a little more efficient if you make the sabers 5 at a time and so on. And another apprentice helps out with the horseshoes and the blacksmith stuff?

He could complete that task in 1 year. So after a year's time, he would have improved every soldier's efficiency in combat by about 15%. I would say that is a pretty good investment. Sure, a soldier's worth is not just his combat effectiveness, but it is a permanent investment. And those swords will last for many years. And then they would probably have a couple of barrels of normal low-quality sabers in the armory, so they can arm the levy if they have to call upon them to fight.

So what is a reasonable baseline?
Many castle garrisons with a real smith have master-crafted weapons and or armor and only poor castle guards or militia have basic weapons.
Or, for every master-crafted weapon, there are hundreds of normal ones?
And do prices, wages, crafting times, efficiency improvements, etc reflect this?

Help me with the assumptions, the baseline if your will.
I will adjust it to fit my world.

We have Henry's opinion that about 10% of a person's wages is reasonable to have invested in gear.

Any other opinions?
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Old 06-20-2021, 03:07 PM   #24
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

The formula I use is based on the inherent 'risk' of the job/position. I rank most army jobs as MEDIUM risk unless the GM decides there's a war going on (i.e. jobs where a 'fail' roll only occurs on an 18 are LOW risk, 16 or 17 is MEDIUM, and anything lower than that is HIGH).

Anyway, a 4-year tour as an army regular provides the following funds...
4 (years) x 45 weeks (jobs higher than LOW risk assume a certain amount of downtime for healing, lost wages, on the run, etc.) x $75 = $13,500 x 0.25 (this figure represents how much is left after all the misc or unplanned expenses that would occur as a result of life... life is expensive).

Final total for equipment upgrades: $3,375

The moral: You can't get rich on a soldier's salary.
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:28 PM   #25
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Every professional soldier should have a balanced or very fine melee weapon. They cost, maybe ten weeks' wages, but make you 10-40% better at fighting. Who in their right mind wouldn't get that after years in the profession? And most likely they would have a +1 enchanted armor and shield too. Every other profession would invest heavily in their own equipment so why not soldiers.

If you are working as a Cab driver today, you would have a car, a piece of equipment that costs so you many months of earnings. A medieval fisherman probably bought a boat to use for fishing and expects to work it off after a few years. A farmer has bought land, a craftsman has his shop, and so on.

If your life was on the line how much would you pay to increase your survival chances and your efficiency by 20%?

And a truly professional rich noble, like a knight? I would be surprised if not most of them had a warhorse for like 5k, a Fine plate +2 for another 7k and a shield +3 for 4k, and a very fine sword +3DX for another 5k.

A hedge knight, down on his luck could spend less than a 1000 and ride a nag, but still. What level of equipment should people have if we go by the prices in The Lab. and the job tables there? Assuming that Weapon and armor enchantments are fairly common at IQ 14.

Take the knight above, he would have 13 points of armor in the front, and all of a sudden you would actually need a big 2H weapon to pierce that, or a very fine, and enchanted, weapon of your own. Or you would have to charge with a lance, wrestle them to the ground, stab them in the back or aim a dirk through the faceguard to take them down. All fairly historic. Is this intentional? That most weapons and armor should be made at fine quality level and often be a little bit enchanted?

Thoughts?
I would think it depends on how the army is run.

Are the warriors sponsoring themselves and their equipment? If so, yes, they would spend as much as they could on weapons/armor. But my guess is that it would not be as great as a Fine Weapon. My guess is that they would harvest special weapons from the defeated or inherit them from relatives.

Is the government employing them and giving them their equipment? Like the modern army, they get Government Issued outfits, weapons, armor. You can't wear/use anything that is not regulation (unless your CO ignores it.) Elite forces might get better equipment. Officers might be able to upgrade if it isn't too outrageous.

Is the government sponsoring them and their equipment? The military is using guidelines, but allowing for non-standardized upgrades that might interfere with uniformity? Like the self-sponsored Warriors, I wouldn't expect a lot of them to upgrade because its expensive and causes jealousy.

Mercenary armies are different. They are a money making venture, where your loyalty is to your leader and yourself. By all means, they would try to upgrade whenever possible.


Rather than actual weapon/armor upgrades, I would think that the army would rather train batches of men in fighting styles, military tactics, and specialties like weaponsmiths, engineers, healers, etc. Raise the quaility of the man.


Quote:
And a truly professional rich noble, like a knight? I would be surprised if not most of them had a warhorse for like 5k, a Fine plate +2 for another 7k and a shield +3 for 4k, and a very fine sword +3DX for another 5k.
Going off of ancient warfare concept of the victor gets the spoils, I would think that rather than buy a horse, the knight would try to kill a knight with a warhorse and take that. Of course, when you have to feed and care for a warhorse, that's probably 1 or two fighting men that you can't afford.



Anyway, I think that this thread is a good mental pondering.
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Old 06-21-2021, 02:42 PM   #26
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

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Originally Posted by Nils_Lindeberg View Post
Or when we declare that Fineplate prices are really 10 times higher due to local demand, I want to know that, especially when one of the PC starts a smithy and invest like 3 talent points into Master Armourer. And then proceeds to make a **** load of money and decide to invest that into something where there isn't a shortage.
I like this entrepreneurial spirit.

The PC will have to have the capital to do invest in the business. He will either have to invest 3 talent points into Master Armourer, as you said, or hire a Master Armorer. He will need Business Sense to run the business OR hire someone to run the business (which will still need someone with Business Sense or risk losing money.) He will probably need help in making regular armors, if nothing else, to keep the place afloat while it is creating these masterpiece Fineplates. He will need raw material, like iron, coal, ironmongering items. He will need time (perhaps even years) to build the reputation of the shop or hire someone who has a reputation (so you can start getting money in immediately).

If the PC is the Master Armorer, he is not adventuring for a long while. If he has hired a Master Armorer, he can go adventuring, but risks the business derailing while he is not there.

I hope the GM gameplay involves many years passing so the PC is still affective.
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Old 06-24-2021, 07:32 PM   #27
Nils_Lindeberg
 
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

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Originally Posted by TippetsTX View Post

Final total for equipment upgrades: $3,375

The moral: You can't get rich on a soldier's salary.
Basically 1000$ of gear per year after the first.
Seems reasonable, but this would also mean that most soldiers would probably invest in their own survival for a large part of that, and then start investing in their retirement. Even though a second hand enchanted sword would still fetch a fair price.
And this would also mean that a standard armament of a five or ten year soldier veteran would be: A very fine weapon for sure, most likely enchanted with a +1 or +2. And armor (depending on DX) with an enchantment of +2. And possibly a shield enchanted with a +1.
That is much tougher opponent than a normal starting PC. Add to this that they might also have started out as 30 points, but would have a couple of more attribute points added.

A formidable foe indeed.

Or maybe this is what makes up the difference between a first-class veteran, that invested in himself and his own gear, and the average soldier that sent home most of his pay, saved for something like a house so he can marry or the lousy soldier that just gambled and drank it all away. Or the soldier that got captured and stripped of his gear once or twice during his career.

Either way, fine weapons are cheap compared to a career of earning. And enchantment costs are easy to afford too.

Thanks for the input.
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Old 06-24-2021, 07:52 PM   #28
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Default Re: Professional Soldiers

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Originally Posted by JohnPaulB View Post
I like this entrepreneurial spirit.

I hope the GM gameplay involves many years passing so the PC is still affective.
Yes, the campaign I am running now will have significant down times where characters can do years worth of side projects. They have already started to invest and buy land. And we just finished the prelude (that took like 8 sessions or so).

The focus will be on the house and the long term development of the house.

I especially liked your view on how the soldiers are equipped and by whom.

The only problem I have are with the game rules that makes somethings much more efficient and others less so than they were historically.

A master crafted sword is probably more equivalent to the difference of a bronze sword and a steel one.

Armor historically speaking were very expensive, and the more the better generally speaking. But in TFT armor comes with a very big down-side, negative DX modifier, making them balanced, but not necessarily historical.

And we have absolutely no counterpart to enchantments of course.

How many weeks salary should a chainmail cost? This is definitely a tech level thing. In the early middle age it was the best you could buy, and chainmail was a noble man's armor, while in the late middle ages you had access to some really astonishing full plate armors that you can run obstacle courses with.

The argument that two guys in leather with normal weapons might be better than one guy in a chainmail with a balanced sword, is valid. But over time, a double salary will outweigh the extra cost of better gear.

A lot of info there and food for thought.

I will probably create a bunch of example levy, militia, militia officers, city watchmen, soldiers, mercenaries, veterans, officers, squires, hedge knights, rich knights, and a hero knight or two. And use those examples as templates. And then calculate backwards how they got their gear, by issue, loan, bought or family heirlooms. And their weekly pay and cost for that.

I have already made a significant change to the wage system depending on if you are a day worker or a hired soldier or if you are a house servant or a house soldier. The former getting more payment, but the latter have job security and their retirement and status secured.
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