Octopus Questions

Bill_in_IN · 10-05-2022, 11:21 AM

ITL, page 82 describes an octopus and its fighting abilities fairly well. It even describes the tentacle damage for HTH. 1D6-2 seems a little low if they are ST 20 but that could be modified a bit similar to the Bare Hand Damage table on ITL, page 122. However, one could argue that in HTH, the Octopus has three tentacle attacks and 5 left to grab their opponent and pull them toward their mouth which is usually a hard beak that can bite out hunks of meat. So, one could argue that the 1D6-2 is appropriate for any ST octopus considering they exist in higher numbers.

So I have three questions.

1. Should the HTH damage for the octopus be ST dependent?

2. What is the bite damage of an octopus and should it also be ST dependent?

3. What is the best way to handle the fact that an octopus can entangle their foes and draw them toward their mouths? This is a very real possible fighting tactic since they are described as liking human flesh.

Shostak · 10-05-2022, 12:19 PM

Tentacle (or, more properly, arm) damage might be lower than standard ST-based due to the fact that they don't have bony fists, feet, elbows, or knees with which to strike. You could make it ST-dependent, but nerfed down -3 so that at ST 20 it yields the listed damage.

Given that an octopus beak is pretty small, it shouldn't be a very powerful attack. For comparison, a diatryma is a large bird with a large beak which does only 1d+1, so maybe the octopus's beak inflicts 1d-1? Or just keep it at 1d-2? Humans can bite, too, but no separate damage is listed for one. The beak attack should probably be confined to HTH only and probably require the octopus to grapple its foe. The closest thing by RAW would be the rules for pinning, which I can't recommend.

amenditman · 10-05-2022, 03:18 PM

You are assuming that these are standard earth-type aquatic octopi. I don't think that is the case for Cidri "Octopi", they are something which looks like an octopus but are very different.

Bill_in_IN · 10-05-2022, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amenditman

You are assuming that these are standard earth-type aquatic octopi. I don't think that is the case for Cidri "Octopi", they are something which looks like an octopus but are very different.

Good Point. The earth version of octopus doesn't walk on several of its arms and wield weapons/shields with three of them.

Bill_in_IN · 10-05-2022, 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak

Tentacle (or, more properly, arm) damage might be lower than standard ST-based due to the fact that they don't have bony fists, feet, elbows, or knees with which to strike. You could make it ST-dependent, but nerfed down -3 so that at ST 20 it yields the listed damage.

Given that an octopus beak is pretty small, it shouldn't be a very powerful attack. For comparison, a diatryma is a large bird with a large beak which does only 1d+1, so maybe the octopus's beak inflicts 1d-1? Or just keep it at 1d-2? Humans can bite, too, but no separate damage is listed for one. The beak attack should probably be confined to HTH only and probably require the octopus to grapple its foe. The closest thing by RAW would be the rules for pinning, which I can't recommend.

Makes sense. It's scary that I had actually thought about the approach that you described. I also thought that it would only apply in an HTH/grapple situation. The octopus eating process is brutal but it does take time. Larger beaks would be on the more giant ocean octopi. As described in ITL, they are basically one hex and human-sized.

I'm not fond of the pinning rules either. Could the HTH grapple be described as an entanglement like that of a bola or net only it is somewhat attached?

Shostak · 10-05-2022, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill_in_IN

Could the HTH grapple be described as an entanglement like that of a bola or net only it is somewhat attached?

I’m not exactly fond of the bola and net rules, either. I’ve come up with some grappling rules that I shared over on my blog that I welcome you to try.

Bill_in_IN · 10-05-2022, 06:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shostak

I’m not exactly fond of the bola and net rules, either. I’ve come up with some grappling rules that I shared over on my blog that I welcome you to try.

Thanks. I'll check it out.

Octopus in TFT are truly deadly as fighters. Wielding weapons in three arms is just plain awesome.

Axly Suregrip · 10-06-2022, 08:21 AM

Bill,
I see what you are looking to do. Octopi grapple with their arms and inject venom with their beaks that paralyze the prey. This would be a realistic and scary addition to the land octopi in this game.

This is my suggestion of how to do it. I would base the grapple on how ITL handles giant scorpions grabbing. I would have the beak do low damage since octopi use it to bore through shells I would make the damage cumulative against armor. The paralyze affect would have last 2 turns. This allows for some playability or chance of escape but very tough.

With this model I would still answer these questions as:

1. Should the HTH damage for the octopus be ST dependent?
- no. sucker cups damage is not ST based.

2. What is the bite damage of an octopus and should it also be ST dependent?
- see below and not ST based

3. What is the best way to handle the fact that an octopus can entangle their foes and draw them toward their mouths? This is a very real possible fighting tactic since they are described as liking human flesh
- see below

New Rules:

Grapple Attack: Range 1 hex. Does no damage. Requires all 5 arms that are not used for standing. Thus it must drop its weapons. If successful, it has grabbed its prey & pulled itself into HTH onto the prey. They prey is immobilized (cannot roll to escape HTH), now has a DX -4 modifier and if wishes to break free must make a 3/ST save. Escaping the grasp still leaves you in HTH and the octopus may just grab you again. But it gets worse.

Beak Attack: once in HTH, the octopus may do a beak attack instead of the three arm attacks. The beak is used to bore into armor, but slowly. It does 1d-2 damage, that is cumulative against armor. Once the beak attack scores damage it paralyzes the victim for 2 turns. That means it gets just one turn to reapply the paralyze again and repeat. It is a very slow way to be eaten alive.

The above makes an Octopus very scary to face one on one since it is a slow but nearly certain death.

I intentionally made the escape easier than the giant scorpions claw. I like the idea of wrestling free of most of the tentacles only to be grabbed again in an epic struggle. You are still stuck in HTH. And you can choose to draw a dagger and stab instead, which is harder with the DX -4 but not impossible.

Let me know what you think.

Axly Suregrip · 10-06-2022, 08:22 AM

Or just leave it as 1d-2 with 3 attacks in HTH instead of the above... because the creators of ITL wanted the octopus to have a weakness in HTH.

amenditman · 10-06-2022, 09:46 AM

@Axly Suregrip
I like the procedure as outlined. Especially the choice, 3 tentacle HtH attacks or the special beak attack.

I would probably do a round or two of HtH attacks to get the target down to 3 or less ST, then move in for the beak after.

Make Octopus scary/nasty. Not a Boss monster for the characters to defeat, an apex predator hunting them.

10-05-2022, 11:21 AM	#1
Bill_in_IN Join Date: Dec 2021 Location: Indiana	Octopus Questions ITL, page 82 describes an octopus and its fighting abilities fairly well. It even describes the tentacle damage for HTH. 1D6-2 seems a little low if they are ST 20 but that could be modified a bit similar to the Bare Hand Damage table on ITL, page 122. However, one could argue that in HTH, the Octopus has three tentacle attacks and 5 left to grab their opponent and pull them toward their mouth which is usually a hard beak that can bite out hunks of meat. So, one could argue that the 1D6-2 is appropriate for any ST octopus considering they exist in higher numbers. So I have three questions. 1. Should the HTH damage for the octopus be ST dependent? 2. What is the bite damage of an octopus and should it also be ST dependent? 3. What is the best way to handle the fact that an octopus can entangle their foes and draw them toward their mouths? This is a very real possible fighting tactic since they are described as liking human flesh.

10-05-2022, 12:19 PM	#2
Shostak Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: New England	Re: Octopus Questions Tentacle (or, more properly, arm) damage might be lower than standard ST-based due to the fact that they don't have bony fists, feet, elbows, or knees with which to strike. You could make it ST-dependent, but nerfed down -3 so that at ST 20 it yields the listed damage. Given that an octopus beak is pretty small, it shouldn't be a very powerful attack. For comparison, a diatryma is a large bird with a large beak which does only 1d+1, so maybe the octopus's beak inflicts 1d-1? Or just keep it at 1d-2? Humans can bite, too, but no separate damage is listed for one. The beak attack should probably be confined to HTH only and probably require the octopus to grapple its foe. The closest thing by RAW would be the rules for pinning, which I can't recommend. __________________ * * * * Anthony Shostak myriangia.wordpress.com

10-05-2022, 03:18 PM	#3
amenditman Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Florida Peninsula, Earth, Sol Sytem	Re: Octopus Questions You are assuming that these are standard earth-type aquatic octopi. I don't think that is the case for Cidri "Octopi", they are something which looks like an octopus but are very different. __________________ The first rule of GMing "If you make it, players will break it"

10-06-2022, 08:21 AM	#8
Axly Suregrip Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Durham, NC	Re: Octopus Questions Bill, I see what you are looking to do. Octopi grapple with their arms and inject venom with their beaks that paralyze the prey. This would be a realistic and scary addition to the land octopi in this game. This is my suggestion of how to do it. I would base the grapple on how ITL handles giant scorpions grabbing. I would have the beak do low damage since octopi use it to bore through shells I would make the damage cumulative against armor. The paralyze affect would have last 2 turns. This allows for some playability or chance of escape but very tough. With this model I would still answer these questions as: 1. Should the HTH damage for the octopus be ST dependent? - no. sucker cups damage is not ST based. 2. What is the bite damage of an octopus and should it also be ST dependent? - see below and not ST based 3. What is the best way to handle the fact that an octopus can entangle their foes and draw them toward their mouths? This is a very real possible fighting tactic since they are described as liking human flesh - see below New Rules: Grapple Attack: Range 1 hex. Does no damage. Requires all 5 arms that are not used for standing. Thus it must drop its weapons. If successful, it has grabbed its prey & pulled itself into HTH onto the prey. They prey is immobilized (cannot roll to escape HTH), now has a DX -4 modifier and if wishes to break free must make a 3/ST save. Escaping the grasp still leaves you in HTH and the octopus may just grab you again. But it gets worse. Beak Attack: once in HTH, the octopus may do a beak attack instead of the three arm attacks. The beak is used to bore into armor, but slowly. It does 1d-2 damage, that is cumulative against armor. Once the beak attack scores damage it paralyzes the victim for 2 turns. That means it gets just one turn to reapply the paralyze again and repeat. It is a very slow way to be eaten alive. The above makes an Octopus very scary to face one on one since it is a slow but nearly certain death. I intentionally made the escape easier than the giant scorpions claw. I like the idea of wrestling free of most of the tentacles only to be grabbed again in an epic struggle. You are still stuck in HTH. And you can choose to draw a dagger and stab instead, which is harder with the DX -4 but not impossible. Let me know what you think.

10-06-2022, 08:22 AM	#9
Axly Suregrip Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Durham, NC	Re: Octopus Questions Or just leave it as 1d-2 with 3 attacks in HTH instead of the above... because the creators of ITL wanted the octopus to have a weakness in HTH.

10-06-2022, 09:46 AM	#10
amenditman Join Date: Nov 2018 Location: Florida Peninsula, Earth, Sol Sytem	Re: Octopus Questions @Axly Suregrip I like the procedure as outlined. Especially the choice, 3 tentacle HtH attacks or the special beak attack. I would probably do a round or two of HtH attacks to get the target down to 3 or less ST, then move in for the beak after. Make Octopus scary/nasty. Not a Boss monster for the characters to defeat, an apex predator hunting them. __________________ The first rule of GMing "If you make it, players will break it"