Judo is a striking skill

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Varyon

The most logical interpretation of [Kromm's] statement is that Judo can't allow you to make a strike (punch/kick/shove/slam/etc) unless a specific rule makes an exception

Kromm does not say "exception". He says: "unless a specific rule says so".
A specific rule does say so. That's undeniable.

... (such as Judo Throw being usable as a "strike" of sorts when used in its damaging form, or if a later book were to allow some sort of strike with Judo).

Those are your interpolations apparently based on your idea that there is an "exception" required. Those interpolations are not evident in Kromm's actual words.

I don't see how you are getting such a bizarre interpretation that Kromm meant the opposite of what he said

I'm going by his very words. From my POV is seems as if it's you who is somehow finding the opposite meaning in them.

the clear implication, when talking about a certain rule, was that he meant a specific other rule).

That is not clear at all. The quote is:

...[for striking] Judo cannot replace DX unless a specific rule says so. In particular, if a rule explicitly lists the allowed skills – like "DX or Sumo Wrestling," "DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling," or "DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling" – Judo works only if it's called out on the list.{Emphasis added.}

The "In particular" sentence defines the category where Judo does not sub for DX because there is a list without Judo on it. By implication, where a rule DOESN'T have a list, the use of Judo for strikes is permitted by the specific rule under the Judo skill that says it can sub for DX.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

The "In particular" sentence defines the category where Judo does not sub for DX because there is a list without Judo on it. By implication, where a rule DOESN'T have a list, the use of Judo for strikes is permitted by the specific rule under the Judo skill that says it can sub for DX.

If you could, please, quote the page that says punches and kicks can be made with DX without listing it as an alternative to Brawling, Boxing, or Karate.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

How is:
"Boxing, Brawling, Karate, or DX"
completely UNlike:
"DX, Brawling, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling"

Well nothing is 'completely' unlike another thing, everything is usually like+unlike to everything else in varying degrees.

Like an inconsequential difference between the above two is for some reason DX is listed last in the first and first in the last.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

I feel like one of us is missing the other's point.

Kromm's quote means Judo is excluded as a sub for DX in the category of cases where a specific rule sets out specific skills for it along with DX. He defined that category with examples which my post above (#53) tracks down.

Uses of Judo to sub for DX that are not within that excluded category are okay.

As best as I can imagine, this means if we are told JUST a DX roll, but no other skill is ever called out, then Judo works?

B368 (evade v obstruct roll) seems like one such instance.

B401 "if you’re attempting to knock away a missile weapon, your opponent rolls against DX." perhaps also? Though maybe only if the one attacking your gun/bow is in close combat with you?

What about P112 "Requires (Attribute) roll" ?

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

those list explicitly exclude Judo from them (except for the one entry on Low-Tech, p. 67).

*also reads supporting paragraph on LT57*

Nice find with the Kakute. Makes me wonder how +1 to the grappler's QC roll to prevent a foe using Break Free would translate to Technical Grappling... like if it influenced Control Points or influenced a dodge/parry vs the Break Free attack. You there Cole?

B85's +1/level to Break Free for Slippery was changed to +1 CR/CP per TWO levels (I assume not adding a +DX for the attack roll?) but a 1:2 ratio wouldn't give any incentive to use a Kakute...

TG28 on the other hand keeps the +3/+5 to DX for Flexibility/Double-Jointed intact for using Break Free attack rolls (a 1:1 ratio) so maybe that could be precedent for keeping the Kakute bonus as something like +1 to DX (for parrying or dodging a Break Free attempt) which MIGHT make a difference?

Just to keep Kakutes cool I was thinking they should maybe subtract 1 control point (like Control Resistance 1) from the "damage" rolled by a successful "Break Free" attempt, or maybe do something like give +1 "damage" when establishing Control Points for a grapple to start with. Or perhaps both?

Originally Posted by RyanW

If you want to get really annoyingly pedantic, nothing says you can attack using a DX roll.

• Basic p. 271 "Melee weapons are grouped under the skills required to use them. Skill names appear in capital letters, with defaults in parentheses"
• Basic p. 563 "attack roll: A success roll against a combat skill"

It just happens that you have innate combat skill with natural weapons equal to your DX (or DX-2 for kicks), but the phrase "DX roll" is never actually used in relation to it. I admit, it's a completely preposterous way to read the rules.

Ironically enough, B370 does seem to have language like that, but not for striking :)
(Grabbing) "Make an attack using DX or a grappling skill"
(Grappling) "Roll against basic DX or a grappling skill to hit."

B403 "Trampling is a melee attack: roll vs. the higher of DX or Brawling"

I'm thinking that since Brawling is called out (a skill) this would be one of the situations where Judo couldn't be subbed for DX for Trampling based on Kromm's wording.

Originally Posted by RyanW

I can't find any reference to punching and kicking using DX .. other than the weapons table

Originally Posted by RyanW

Strikers, Melee spells, Telekinesis

For B88 Striker "Roll against DX or Brawling" I figure you can't use Judo since it does call out another skill (Brawling).

For TK "Grappling and Striking", B92's "Roll against DX or an unarmed combat skill to hit", I pretty much assume you would only roll against an appropriate unarmed combat skill, like judo/sumo/wrest if grabbing/grappling or brawl/box/karat if punching.

Melee spells though... B240 "To attack, roll against DX or an unarmed combat skill to hit with a
hand" seems like ANY unarmed combat skill would do, like it wouldn't matter whether it trains punches or grapples as the primary use, because they're contact spells.

One aspect of that... doesn't this pretty much assume that parrying works by deflecting the ARM rather than the HAND? I don't think for example, it would make sense to allow a "Grabbing Parry" which grabs the HAND instead of the ARM, to stop a Melee Spell, because you're choosing to touch the hand, so the spell should go off!

It's not really like a punch where you can just assume that this means they stopped the punch's power...

Originally Posted by RyanW

Shoves, and Slams have such references in their respective sections)

B371 "Roll against DX, Brawling, or Sumo Wrestling to hit"
B372 "Roll against DX or Sumo Wrestling to hit"

I imagine Judo doesn't apply since skills are called out in addition to DX though.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by RyanW

If you could, please, quote the page that says punches and kicks can be made with DX without listing it as an alternative to Brawling, Boxing, or Karate.

Could you explain the relevance of such?

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by Plane

Melee spells though... B240 "To attack, roll against DX or an unarmed combat skill to hit with a
hand" seems like ANY unarmed combat skill would do, like it wouldn't matter whether it trains punches or grapples as the primary use, because they're contact spells.

Since this is for spells, you just need to make contact, and a grappling skill allows you to make contact. Note that at the beginning of that section it also says that a Mages staff can be "charged" with a Melee spell, and you have to use "a normal melee attack roll to hit your target with your hand or staff." This means that you can also use Staff, Shortsword, Smallsword, or Axe/Mace to make contact with an appropriate piece of wood which has been Enchanted to be a Wizards Staff.

That doesn't mean you get to "punch" with any of those skills, you just get to do a normal attack with the skill (and weapon) and the Melee spell will activate if you make contact. If you use Brawling you can punch them normally and then activate the Melee Spell; if you use Judo you can Grapple them and then activate the Melee Spell. If you use a Quarterstaff you can swing or thrust with Staff skill and then activate the Melee Spell. Or, in any of the cases, you can choose to "Pull your punches" (p. B401) and just make light contact with hand or weapon to activate the Melee Spell. This can be useful if you're not trying to hurt the target; you can cast Paralyze Limb or Total Paralysis on them with a light hit/touch.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I think you're reading too much into it. DX as a substitute for Brawling, Karate and/or Boxing is default use of a punch, kick or bite as well as indicating default use of the two weapons you've named. Knowing Judo does not prevent you from making those default attacks, but neither does the ability to make those default non-Judo attacks make Judo into a striking skill.

This.

Also, in the original quote, "any DX roll made in close combat" does not mean "any DX-based skill roll". "A DX roll" isn't a super-category including everything related to DX.
The term simply means the bare DX rolls that are unassociated with any skill -- though as in this case, sometimes you can substitute an actual skill in place of the raw attribute check.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Could you explain the relevance of such?

You seem to have acknowledged that you cannot use Judo as a DX substitute when DX is listed among a set of skills that does not include Judo. You also claim that Judo can be used for strikes. I assume that means you know of a case where strikes are allowed using a DX roll that is not part of a list of skills that does not include Judo.

[ericbsmith]

Originally Posted by RyanW

If you could, please, quote the page that says punches and kicks can be made with DX without listing it as an alternative to Brawling, Boxing, or Karate.

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

Could you explain the relevance of such?

Originally Posted by Kromm uFAQ

In particular, if a rule explicitly lists the allowed skills ... Judo works only if it's called out on the list.

fnord fnord fnord

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by Plane

As best as I can imagine, this means if we are told JUST a DX roll, but no other skill is ever called out, then Judo works?

If I understand what your are saying then I think that's right, bearing in mind that the Judo skill write-up limits it to close combat.

B401 "if you’re attempting to knock away a missile weapon, your opponent rolls against DX." perhaps also? Though maybe only if the one attacking your gun/bow is in close combat with you?

So you're defending against a having your missile weapon knocked away and you are allowed a DX roll for that. Hmmm. If the attacker is at more than Reach C, I'd say you cannot sub in a Judo roll.

What about P112 "Requires (Attribute) roll" ?

Rolls in close combat would be a very narrow case within that. I'd have to think about much more.

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by ericbsmith

fnord fnord fnord

What are you trying to convey?