Judo is a striking skill

[MrFix]

B203, Judo Entry

Finally, you may use your Judo skill instead of your DX for any DX roll made in close combat except to draw a weapon or drop a shield.

B271, Weapon Box

BOXING, BRAWLING, KARATE, or DX
- Punch
- Brass Knuckles
BRAWLING-2, KARATE-2, or DX-2
- Kick
- Kick with boots
BRAWLING or DX
- Blunt Teeth
- Fangs
- Sharp Beak
- Sharp Teeth
- Striker
- Blackjack or Sap
- Stun Gun

Conclusion: Judo can make strikes with hands, legs, fist loads and strikers as they're used by DX.

Bonuses:
- Combined skill level/point spending. No need to buy Brawling/Boxing/Karate if you dont expect much use out of them.
- In some situations, easier to acquire perks if Judo is the only style skill.

Downsides:
- No striking techniques or perks out of the box.
- No damage bonus
- Attacks at Reach 1 cannot be used with Judo, so kick is reduced to C range only.

Am I going nuts?

[Anders]

More likely it's a bug. Fairly certain Judo isn't intended as a striking skill.

[Plane]

Another downside: couldn't use them with All-Out Attack (Long) since the +1 to reach would make it not close combat.

I vaguely recall reading errata somewhere (possibly by Kromm?) which narrowed that but I can't remember where.

[Curmudgeon]

Originally Posted by MrFix

<snip>
Conclusion: Judo can make strikes with hands, legs, fist loads and strikers as they're used by DX.

Bonuses:
- Combined skill level/point spending.
- In some situations, easier to acquire perks if Judo is the only style skill.

Downsides:
- No striking techniques or perks out of the box.
- No damage bonus
- Attacks at Reach 1 cannot be used with Judo, so kick is reduced to C range only.

Am I going nuts?

I think you're reading too much into it. DX as a substitute for Brawling, Karate and/or Boxing is default use of a punch, kick or bite as well as indicating default use of the two weapons you've named. Knowing Judo does not prevent you from making those default attacks, but neither does the ability to make those default non-Judo attacks make Judo into a striking skill.

What Judo does allow is that in Close Combat, if your Judo skill is greater than your DX, then, in that limited circumstance, you benefit by being more likely to connect with a punch, kick or bite or with a sap or stun gun. It may err on the side of generosity, it could have read you may substitute Judo -1 or Judo-2 for DX.

It reflects an argument that having to operate in close vicinity to your opponent in order to throw him, which is a principal use of Judo, you should be able to spot and make more effective use of any opportunities to kick, punch or bite at close quarters than your DX would otherwise suggest. Which still doesn't make Judo a striking skill, it just gives you a better default use of strikes under those limited circumstances.

[Plane]

If we're really going to take that approach, then I would at least limit it with the "you don't count as being in close combat unless you began your turn in close combat" aspect for attackers.

This is from errata for B392's "Defence in Close Combat" (can't block, only reach-C weapons can parry) at http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.3.6 which modified the BasicRAW to be way less brutal by adding this:

On a turn when someone enters close combat and tries to attack or grapple you, you can defend normally as if you were not in Close Combat

MA117 (Long Weapons in Close Combat) seems to imply something along those lines except it's even better (also counts if attacker began turn but you have room to retreat):

This doesn’t affect parries made as your foe enters close combat.
Likewise, if you’re able to retreat out of close combat, you get your full Parry plus the usual retreat bonus.

The penalty for parrying only seems to apply if the foe BEGAN his turn in close combat (not if he entered it on the very turn he launched the attack).

So perhaps in the same way (attackers don't benefit from penalizing their target's parry if they just approached) a Judoka doesn't get to use his higher-than-DX skill if he just entered close combat that very turn?

This would at least stop Judoka from doing amazing running punches.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Curmudgeon

I think you're reading too much into it. DX as a substitute for Brawling, Karate and/or Boxing is default use of a punch, kick or bite as well as indicating default use of the two weapons you've named. Knowing Judo does not prevent you from making those default attacks, but neither does the ability to make those default non-Judo attacks make Judo into a striking skill.

What Judo does allow is that in Close Combat, if your Judo skill is greater than your DX, then, in that limited circumstance, you benefit by being more likely to connect with a punch, kick or bite or with a sap or stun gun. It may err on the side of generosity, it could have read you may substitute Judo -1 or Judo-2 for DX.

It reflects an argument that having to operate in close vicinity to your opponent in order to throw him, which is a principal use of Judo, you should be able to spot and make more effective use of any opportunities to kick, punch or bite at close quarters than your DX would otherwise suggest. Which still doesn't make Judo a striking skill, it just gives you a better default use of strikes under those limited circumstances.

There's a very clear difference between "Default" use and use based on attribute. When you do something at default, you still roll a Skill, it's level is based on the default as you have 0 points in it.

When you test DX, even to punch, you do not roll at default, you make a DX roll with specific outcome. Hence the whole basis of the argument.

Just to clear things up. Remember, Brawling, Boxing and Karate HAVE NO DEFAULTS, so you physically cannot 'punch at default' in GURPS.

What you describe in the end of your post is essentially true. You have higher chance to connect a strike if your Judo is higher than DX. I simply call it a "striking skill" because you can use your SL to strike with unarmed and fist-load weapons.

Originally Posted by Plane

If we're really going to take that approach, then I would at least limit it with the "you don't count as being in close combat unless you began your turn in close combat" aspect for attackers.

This is from errata for B392's "Defence in Close Combat" (can't block, only reach-C weapons can parry) at http://www.sjgames.com/gurps/faq/FAQ4-3.html#SS3.4.3.6 which modified the BasicRAW to be way less brutal by adding this:

On a turn when someone enters close combat and tries to attack or grapple you, you can defend normally as if you were not in Close Combat

MA117 (Long Weapons in Close Combat) seems to imply something along those lines except it's even better (also counts if attacker began turn but you have room to retreat):

This doesn’t affect parries made as your foe enters close combat.
Likewise, if you’re able to retreat out of close combat, you get your full Parry plus the usual retreat bonus.

The penalty for parrying only seems to apply if the foe BEGAN his turn in close combat (not if he entered it on the very turn he launched the attack).

So perhaps in the same way (attackers don't benefit from penalizing their target's parry if they just approached) a Judoka doesn't get to use his higher-than-DX skill if he just entered close combat that very turn?

This would at least stop Judoka from doing amazing running punches.

Pay attention, this only covers DEFENSES against an attack. The attacker still counts as in close combat if he enters it on his turn, and can still make Reach C attacks (which is hallmark of being in close combat). The DEFENDER is permitted to defend as if the attacker wasnt, but attacker himself is not penalized at all.

Hence, Judo Step Into Close Combat And Punch is 100% valid.

[Varyon]

While training in jujutsu/judo is likely to involve some training with strikes, this is more likely GURPS Brawling or Karate (GURPS Martial Arts suggests Karate for Jujutsu), and indeed many schools make an explicit distinction between the grappling and striking styles (where I practiced, we typically only practiced one of Judo or Taekwondo each day, and indeed our teacher wore a different outfit and belt depending on which we were learning that day; some hybridization was in play on days where we emphasized self-defense training, however). The GURPS Judo skill shouldn't include the ability to make strikes, any more than Wrestling does (where most historical non-Sport styles with Wrestling also incorporate a striking skill, or tend to learned alongside a striking style). While the GURPS rules legally lend themselves to the interpretation that Judo can be used for strikes in close combat, I agree with others that this is an error/oversight rather than something intentional. The fact Martial Arts makes no mention of Judo skill being used for strikes (indeed, under the description it mentions "It’s part of any style that incorporates a systematic body of grabs, grapples, sweeps, and throws, regardless of the style’s provenance" when explaining its inclusion in styles unrelated to historical jujutsu/judo) strongly indicates it is never meant to be used for striking. Indeed, the only striking-like Technique that uses Judo is Eye Gouge, and that also can use Wrestling (and makes sense as a grappling option).

[Anders]

I suspect we are not dealing with "how does judo work" but "what do the rules say". I don't think this was ever Kromm's intent.

[AlexanderHowl]

If punching, kicking, etc. was meant to default to Judo, the techniques would have the default listed in Basic and Martial Arts. Since Judo is not a valid default for those techniques, they do not default to Judo. In addition, the description in Basic says that Judo is an advanced study of throws and grapples and that Judo replaces only DX rolls (there is nothing about Technique rolls) in close combat. Of course, you could have a perk that gives Judo strikes, but they would be similar to Acrobatic Kicks, and they would not give any damage bonus.

[MrFix]

Originally Posted by Anders

I suspect we are not dealing with "how does judo work" but "what do the rules say". I don't think this was ever Kromm's intent.

Correct, it is the question of rules. I do not want to judge whether it was Kromm's intent or not until he or somebody else from GURPS team says so.

One argument AGAINST the belief that it is a bug is that there's no DX rolls in close combat other than to draw a weapon or stow the shield away (that I could find).

Veryon, you're falling into the most classic GURPS pitfall and blunder - "I have IRL experience with something that means I can judge how it works in GURPS".

This skill represents any advanced training at unarmed throws and grapples – not just the eponymous Japanese martial art.

B203, Judo Entry.

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

If punching, kicking, etc. was meant to default to Judo, the techniques would have the default listed in Basic and Martial Arts. Since Judo is not a valid default for those techniques, they do not default to Judo. In addition, the description in Basic says that Judo is an advanced study of throws and grapples and that Judo replaces only DX rolls (there is nothing about Technique rolls) in close combat. Of course, you could have a perk that gives Judo strikes, but they would be similar to Acrobatic Kicks, and they would not give any damage bonus.

Punches, kicks etc are executed by DX, it is not a default, it is a basic use of DX. Brawling, Boxing, Karate etc do not have default to DX. Hence the entire argument - GURPS permits you to use Judo SL instead of DX for any DX task (with noted exceptions). This also appears in Basic Set, a paragraph later after your statement.

Another argument for it not being a bug is that Judo already has non-grappling uses. Namely, you can roll Judo to breakfall to survive a fall or a car crash - just like Acrobatics.