[DF] Monster classes & recognition

[Onkl]

Hi guys

According to DFM1:4 there are the following monster classes:

• Animal (Giant if huge, Dire if mutant; all are affected by Animal Handling and Animal spells)
• Construct (entirely incorruptible)
• Demon (evil, and subject to the Banish spell)
• Divine Servitor (treat as demons, but not necessarily evil)
• Elder Thing (insane, and not vulnerable to Banish)
• Elemental (affected by Banish and Control Elemental)
• Faerie
• Hybrid (as Animal, but requires a special subset of Animal spells)
• Mundane (has vital areas)
• Plant (affected by Plant spells)
• Slime (diffuse, and immune to most Animal and Plant spells)
• Undead (can be turned with True Faith).

I've tried to link these classes to skills, using the rules presented on DF2:9 (Recognition) and DFM2:19 (Know your goo):

• Animal --> Naturalist
• Construct --> Thaumathology
• Demon --> Hidden Lore (Demons)
• Divine Servitor --> Hidden Lore (Divine Servitors)
• Elder Thing --> Occultism
• Elemental --> Hidden Lore (Elementals)
• Faerie --> Hidden Lore (Fairy Folk)
• Hybrid --> Naturalist
• Mundane --> Heraldry
• Plant --> Naturalist
• Slime --> Naturalist
• Undead --> Hidden Lore (Undead)

The following questions came up:

1) Do you agree on how I linked the skills to classes?
2) What skills do you allow for the tasks described under DF2:9 in your game?
3) How do the Holy Warriors' Physiology / Psychology skills fit into this system? I assume that monster type is not equal to monster class but a special subset of a class, eg. Physiology (Skeleton) instead of Physiology (Undead), is that correct?
4) Where does Hidden Lore (Elder Things) fit or how does it differ from the knowledge gained from the Occultism skill? Found HD (Elder Things) on DFM2:19 under Gooey Themes.
5) Do you allow the Survival skill to recognize monsters if they fit the speciality. Eg. Survival (Swampland) to identify an Alligator?

Cheers!

Onkl

[GodBeastX]

Originally Posted by Onkl

Hi guys

According to DFM1:4 there are the following monster classes:

• Animal (Giant if huge, Dire if mutant; all are affected by Animal Handling and Animal spells)
• Construct (entirely incorruptible)
• Demon (evil, and subject to the Banish spell)
• Divine Servitor (treat as demons, but not necessarily evil)
• Elder Thing (insane, and not vulnerable to Banish)
• Elemental (affected by Banish and Control Elemental)
• Faerie
• Hybrid (as Animal, but requires a special subset of Animal spells)
• Mundane (has vital areas)
• Plant (affected by Plant spells)
• Slime (diffuse, and immune to most Animal and Plant spells)
• Undead (can be turned with True Faith).

I've tried to link these classes to skills, using the rules presented on DF2:9 (Recognition) and DFM2:19 (Know your goo):

• Animal --> Naturalist
• Construct --> Thaumathology
• Demon --> Hidden Lore (Demons)
• Divine Servitor --> Hidden Lore (Divine Servitors)
• Elder Thing --> Occultism
• Elemental --> Hidden Lore (Elementals)
• Faerie --> Hidden Lore (Fairy Folk)
• Hybrid --> Naturalist
• Mundane --> Heraldry
• Plant --> Naturalist
• Slime --> Naturalist
• Undead --> Hidden Lore (Undead)

The following questions came up:

1) Do you agree on how I linked the skills to classes?
2) What skills do you allow for the tasks described under DF2:9 in your game?
3) How do the Holy Warriors' Physiology / Psychology skills fit into this system? I assume that monster type is not equal to monster class but a special subset of a class, eg. Physiology (Skeleton) instead of Physiology (Undead), is that correct?
4) Where does Hidden Lore (Elder Things) fit or how does it differ from the knowledge gained from the Occultism skill? Found HD (Elder Things) on DFM2:19 under Gooey Themes.
5) Do you allow the Survival skill to recognize monsters if they fit the speciality. Eg. Survival (Swampland) to identify an Alligator?

Cheers!

Onkl

I wanted to talk about the difference in skill use a bit. Usually the idea of Occultism or Hidden Lore, etc, is how information is presented. Put yourself in the skill's shoes. If someone rolls Hidden Lore, this is often going to be information you cannot learn unless you studied the source or information about the source.

Skills like occultism come at it from a different angle. Occultism on an elder thing is going to probably be from the Occultist angle, where Hidden Lore will probably be technical primers and other ideas.

GMs could just wrap them both in the same information net and be done with it, but I like to consider these things. If you roll your Religious knowledge on a vampire, it's going to tell you all your beliefs around them. If you roll Hidden Lore (Undead) you will probably get unbiased neutral information.

[evileeyore]

It depends... are you using DF 14 Psi or not?

If no, then use Occultism and do not use Hidden Lore (Elder Thing). If you are then Occultism is used for "Long Forgotten Gods" (i.e. The Old Ones) and Hidden Lore (Elder Thing) is for the beings from Beyond Space and Time(TM).



Or you could do what I did with it for a Fantasy game (and a Monster Hunters game) I was setting up:


Occultism - What the common Joe On The Street knows about "weird stuff": Silver hurts werewolves; you have to stake a vampire; sometimes vampires sparkle in the sun, sometimes they catch fire or explode; ghost can't cross salt lines, or was it chalk lines? or maybe ...

Theology, Thaumatology, Naturalist, any other truly professional skill - This is what someone who has done some studying on the stuff knows. This isn't "Hidden" information, just not really common. Thus if Undead are covered under Theology, the Holy Man knows how to kill vamps, repel ghosts, and stop Zombies from rising, the right way.

Hidden Lore - This is for stuff that is Hidden. The True Names of Demons, what the Elder Things are like, how to deal with such stuff.


Directly from my House Rules from that game:

Occultism is the study of folklore, legend, myth, and superstition – the fictions that humanity shares regarding the supernatural. A successful roll tells you what people believe about any given monster – which doesn’t always line up with the truth! Still, this “shotgun” approach makes it a useful backup skill if you never studied up on a particular skill.

Whenever you need to roll against Hidden Lore (any supernatural), Theology (any), or Thaumatology for informational purposes, you may use Occultism instead. Roll using the following penalties:

Modifiers: No penalty for broad generalities or questions about cultural perceptions (“Do members of this religion believe in demons?”), -2 for concrete questions on a general topic (“Can demons drink alcohol?”), -6 for more focused questions (“What type of demon are we facing?”), or -10 for specific questions (“What are Azabath’s particular weaknesses?”). If the roll is already penalized for dealing with an obscure topic, combine the penalties.



Basically in this case Occultism becomes a 'fall' back skill for anyone who wants to through a handful of points into one skill, instead of all of the them.

[Anthony]

What skills are Hidden Lore is very setting-dependent, as it basically just means the lore is not available from standard sources. For example, most cryptids are both animal and hidden lore. For the categories in DFM, assume any of them might be covered by a hidden lore.
• Animal: Naturalist or Biology.
• Construct: Thaumatology.
• Demon: Occultism(Demonology) or an appropriate Theology.
• Divine Servitor: Occultism(Servitors) or an appropriate Theology.
• Elder Thing: Occultism(Elder Things). Often Hidden.
• Elemental: Thaumatology or sometimes Naturalist.
• Faerie: Typically Occultism, some traditions might actually be Naturalist.
• Hybrid: Naturalist or Biology
• Mundane: Naturalist or Biology.
• Plant: Naturalist or Biology.
• Slime: Naturalist or Biology.
• Undead: Thaumaturgy for types created through magic; Occultism or Hidden Lore for other types.

Note that any creature that is theologically significant (demons specifically opposed to your deity, divine servitors of your deity, and less commonly almost anything else) can also gain some benefits from Theology skill.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Anthony

• Demon: Occultism(Demonology)
• Divine Servitor: Occultism(Servitors)
• Elder Thing: Occultism(Elder Things)

I don't believe DF (as a blanket setting) requires Occultism to be specialized, specially when Hidden Lore is often the 'go to' for that level of actual, you know, hidden lore.


Of course individual DF setting will vary.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by evileeyore

I don't believe DF (as a blanket setting) requires Occultism to be specialized, specially when Hidden Lore is often the 'go to' for that level of actual, you know, hidden lore.

The distinction between Occultism and Hidden Lore is... poor. TBH, hidden lore skill should probably not exist, it's really just "lore that requires an appropriate backstory to learn".

[David Johnston2]

Does DF not have Theology to learn about Divine Servitors?

[simply Nathan]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Does DF not have Theology to learn about Divine Servitors?

That's what I always thought was the first logical choice and yes, Theology is on the clerics' and holy warrios' skill lists.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

Does DF not have Theology to learn about Divine Servitors?

What DF needed to do was list what skills were needed to "Recognize and Identify" each creature in the Monster's sections (and the Ally's sections, and etc).

But what 'works' is for the GM to make a master list as the OP is doing here for his game...

[Varyon]

Originally Posted by Onkl

• Mundane --> Heraldry

This seems an odd choice. Mundanes should probably just be instantly recognized if not from some exceedingly obscure race, in which case you're probably talking Area Knowledge, although other skills (Theology if the race is of religious importance, Architecture if the race has built famous structures, etc) might work as well. If you're allowing for more complex hybrids than just "Half-<race>," Perception-based Physiology for either parent race can probably identify what the character is.
Heraldry is more for identifying what country/mercenary army/noble house the character belongs to, and would require some sort of visual tell - actual heraldry is obvious, but favoring certain colors or a certain style of dress/hairstyle can also work. Given, in a DF setting, you're likely to have something like the Elven Empire, the Dwarf Kingdom, and so forth, with each race having its own country, and thus you may end up with features of the races being features of the country. In that case, Heraldry will work - but note when some obscure race shows up wearing elven clothing, Heraldry will tell you it's an elf, not a Whatsit (it will also tell you an orc in elven clothing is an elf, humorously). If the character clearly isn't an elf (like the orc), Heraldry will just tell you they're dressed like an elf, not what race they actually are (again, common races are automatic - "It's an orc in elven clothing" - but obscure ones need an appropriate skill to identify them).

Originally Posted by Onkl

5) Do you allow the Survival skill to recognize monsters if they fit the speciality. Eg. Survival (Swampland) to identify an Alligator?

I would, but you'll want to float it to IQ, as it's more an application of knowledge than your ability to see/find something.