Price Efficiency of Super-ST [Powers/Supers]

[Phantasm]

Super ST is indeed worthless under a certain level. HOWEVER, once you get into 10-15 levels, as I do for my Marvel Reboot project, or even up to 20 levels which is where the stunts you see Superman, Hulk, and Thanos pulling on-screen reside, Super ST actually starts getting extremely cheap compared to Lifting+Striking ST.

Figure 25 levels of Super ST on top of ST 20, for a final ST score of 45/30,020. Your basic lift is 90,000 tons, which means your 2-handed lift (the benchmark used by Marvel, and to a lesser extent DC and Image, for measuring strength) is 720 kilotons. You're punching for 3003d-1 damage ... really, at that point, you can probably ignore the -1. That's 3003d+6005 if you have Boxing or Karate high enough to give a +2/die damage bonus. That's only a mere 1100 points (25 levels at 40 pts/level, plus 100 pts for ST 20).

You'll notice I didn't give a character with a 2-handed lift of 1 ton any levels of Super ST, instead giving straight Lifting+Striking ST. (And I'll need to go back and alter a few folks also in that weight class.) I think the 5 ton range (ST 80, or ST 10+Super ST +9/+70) is my cut-off for where to start using it. But when dealing with Hulk and Juggernaut in their Class 400+ range, ST 20 + Super ST +15/+700 or higher, it's cheaper than going Lifting ST + Striking ST.


Also, don't forget the ABC method: Accurate, then Basic (Simple), then Cheap. Not everyone skips Basic to go straight to Cheap like the OP seems to imply they should. A simpler build is easier to read, and easier to implement in play.

[nudj]

Actually you don’t need the roll or even the Fatigue point. Use the rule from Sorcery that turns imbuement skills into advantages with no roll. If you use that:

Double Strength is 1(UB) + 44 (attribute +10 power blow)
+ 100% no die roll required + 20% less fatigue =99 points

Triple Strength is 187 points

So for 8x 27 + 187 = 403 points you can have Strength 111 without fatigue or grappling restrictions.

That’s pretty simple

[AlexanderHowl]

When it comes to Basic, the example they give for Basic is to avoid repeating inventing the wheel for equivalent traits. The example that I give above is not equivalent, the character has greater Lifting ST and Striking ST without spending FP than a character with Super-ST 10 (44 rather than 30) and a greater Lifting ST and Striking ST after spending FP (132 rather than 120).

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

Super-ST is an trait because it only possesses a net utility after level eight. Before level eight, it is better to purchase ST, Lifting ST, and Striking ST. Here are the equivalents:

Level 1: +1 ST plus +2 Lifting ST and +2 Striking ST [26]
Level 2: +2 ST plus +3 Lifting ST and +3 Striking ST [44]
Level 3: +3 ST plus +4 Lifting ST and +4 Striking ST [62]
Level 4: +4 ST plus +6 Lifting ST and +6 Striking ST [88]
Level 5: +5 ST plus +10 Lifting ST and +10 Striking ST [130]
Level 6: +6 ST plus +14 Lifting ST and +14 Striking ST [172]
Level 7: +7 ST plus +23 Lifting ST and +23 Striking ST [254]

My question is the following: why would anyone purchase Super-ST below 8? Is there any reason, or would it just be an exercise in futility?

Really, just use Kromm "Knowing your own Strength" rules instead.

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by nudj

Actually you don’t need the roll or even the Fatigue point. Use the rule from Sorcery that turns imbuement skills into advantages with no roll. If you use that:

Double Strength is 1(UB) + 44 (attribute +10 power blow)
+ 100% no die roll required + 20% less fatigue =99 points

Triple Strength is 187 points

So for 8x 27 + 187 = 403 points you can have Strength 111 without fatigue or grappling restrictions.

That’s pretty simple

I'd be cautious using that for building powers, because the reduced FP cost is countered by it becoming a sorcery spell and thus having a FP cost there.

[Phantasm]

I'll be honest, though... there are times when I want a finer granularity than Super ST provides.

Roughly speaking, Super ST's weight classes (using "Class" as a rough of how many tons you can two-handed lift) run:

Class 10 (ST 12 + Super ST +10/+100, final ST 112)
Class 25 (ST 20 + Super ST +11/+150, final ST 170)
Class 37 (ST 20 + Super ST +12/+200, final ST 220)
Class 80 (ST 20 + Super ST +13/+300, final ST 320)
Class 200 (ST 20 + Super ST +14/+500, final ST 520)
Class 420 (ST 20 + Super ST +15/+700, final ST 720)


But it costs more to hit Class 50 (final ST 250) or Class 100 (final ST 355) by adding Lifting+Striking ST on top of Super ST than it does skipping those weight classes and hitting Class 80 or Class 200 directly, as well as being more expensive using Lifting+Striking ST from the get-go. (And KYOS is even less granular than Super ST, from what I can see.)

So is there a simple compromise so Class 50 costs less than Class 80 but more than Class 40 without removing the point breaks of higher-level Super ST altogether?

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by NineDaysDead

Really, just use Kromm "Knowing your own Strength" rules instead.

If that is, you can find them.

[NineDaysDead]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

If that is, you can find them.

Here? Are people really having difficulty finding them?

[AlexanderHowl]

I think that a better way of doing Super-ST would be to treat it as a 30 CP/level advantage (with a maximum level equal to (ST-20)) that increases Lifting ST and Striking ST by 10 per level when they spend 1 FP. It would allow for a smoother progression.

Level 1: ST 21/31
Level 2: ST 22/42
Level 3: ST 23/53
Level 4: ST 24/64
Level 5: ST 25/75
Level 6: ST 26/86
Level 7: ST 27/97
Level 8: ST 28/108
Level 9: ST 29/119
Level 10: ST 30/130

As for KYOS, I really do not like the progression because it violates the logic behind strength in GURPS.

[naloth]

Originally Posted by AlexanderHowl

As for KYOS, I really do not like the progression because it violates the logic behind strength in GURPS.

It changes the meaning ST values, certainly. Violates? No more than Bunnies and Burrows violated things.

In truth KYOS fixes a great many things to work much more like 4 color (even sci-fi) action does. It pulls GURPS a bit from its more simulationist roots but in favor of making it much easier to handle enormous power differences.

The problem is that it doesn't mesh well with equipment that uses values that increase linearly with power. If you "log-ify" equipment, everything works rather nicely.