Snatcher for One

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

Hey, some great ideas, folks!

Some of these might work really well for some cases, and I'm sorry I didn't specifically clarify what I was looking for. I want the wizard to be able to summon forth her staff from wherever it is, whether it's lost, stolen, or sitting in its case at home. It would be nice but not essential if she could send it back home, or if she could summon it from another dimension/world (I'd be somewhat OK if she had to look for it in that case, but the campaign involves lots of relatively easy traveling to other worlds).

As for Cosmic, I've seen both here and in the GURPS Social Engineering playtest that's there's various house rules for this, which is fine--GURPS is about doing it as you want. But in our game, we're going by the book: p. B33 says Cosmic is "abilities that emanate from the universe itself or otherwise defy explanation. This is reserved for gods, powerful spirits, supers, etc." My wizard is just a "normal" wizard, so in our game Cosmic wouldn't apply to her.

There are lots of uses of Cosmic that just mean that the ability ignores some of the regular rules, and don't necessarily mean that it's Cosmic in the sense explained on B33. These include Cosmic on Payload to make it extradimensional, Cosmic: Instant Acceleration on Enhanced Move, and a few others. Since these uses are in the books as well, using them is 'going by the book', if they fit your concept.

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

I'm thinking it being a Named Possession, which if you don't know is a Perk where your item gains character points as you do as long as you've done something of "spiritual significance." You can trade each character point for 25 points of enchantment if you want (although the enchantment doesn't have to be classified as magical). This would make it hard to figure as Signature Gear, plus every time her staff gains points she'd have to spend her own character points for the increased value, which would be overly expensive.

Not sure how that would make it summonable in itself, unless you'd actually write it up as a character and an Ally.

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

As an example of how expensive Signature Gear can get when combined with Named Possession, in a TL 3 campaign like hers the average starting wealth is $1000. If she spends 10 of the staff's character points on enchantments, that's paid for by Named Possession. But if it's also Signature Gear, that's 10 * 25 = 250, so the cost is $33 * 250 = $8250 which rounds up to having to spend 5 of her own character points! However, I suppose I could use the Signature Gear option of Ally, Enhancements Constantly and Summonable. I'll give it some thought.

By the way, if you don't have GURPS Power-Ups 2: Perks I'd suggest
buying it. Personally I think it would be well worth it at twice the cost.

I'd suggest either keep it Signature Gear, and extend the Summonable enhancement to that advantage as suggested, or make it an Ally that's Summonable, but don't buy it as both.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

I'd suggest either keep it Signature Gear, and extend the Summonable enhancement to that advantage as suggested, or make it an Ally that's Summonable, but don't buy it as both.

Yeah cool.

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

Let me know if you think this works:

Named Possession (1, Frequency of Appearance: Constantly * 4, Summonable +100%) If I'm reading p. B36 Frequency of Appearance right on the order to figure the math, this would be:

(1 * 4) + (1 * 4) = 8 pts.

Or should it be:

(1 * 4) + 1 = 5 pts.?

Is it acceptable to answer your own question? I check p. B101 where it says, "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects....this is expressed as a percentage. For instance, a +20% enhancement would increase the point cost of an advantage by 1/5 its base cost...."

So it seems in my example it should be:

(1 * 4) + (100% of 1) = 5 pts.

If the staff were bought as an Ally with a base cost of 1 pt., the formula would be the same. If the Ally had a base cost of 2 pts., it would be:

(2 * 4) + (100% of 2) = 10 pts.

Anyone see a problem with this?

[Tuoni]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

Yeah cool.



Is it acceptable to answer your own question? I check p. B101 where it says, "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects....this is expressed as a percentage. For instance, a +20% enhancement would increase the point cost of an advantage by 1/5 its base cost...."

So it seems in my example it should be:

(1 * 4) + (100% of 1) = 5 pts.

If the staff were bought as an Ally with a base cost of 1 pt., the formula would be the same. If the Ally had a base cost of 2 pts., it would be:

(2 * 4) + (100% of 2) = 10 pts.

Anyone see a problem with this?

Yup. the *X (such as an Alternate Ability) stuff adjusts base cost before modifiers are applied. So your to examples should be:

(1 * 4) + 100% of (1 * 4) = 8 pts
and
(2 * 4) + 100% of (2 * 4) = 16 pts

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by Tuoni

Yup. the *X (such as an Alternate Ability) stuff adjusts base cost before modifiers are applied. So your to examples should be:

(1 * 4) + 100% of (1 * 4) = 8 pts
and
(2 * 4) + 100% of (2 * 4) = 16 pts

That's what I thought at first. But after relooking at it I don't believe so now.

If you look at p. B36 under Frequency of Appearance it says, "Frequency of appearance multiplies the point cost for an Associated NPC (p. 31) after determining power level and group size (as applicable) but before you apply any special modifiers." (Italics are the book's).

So let's start with Ally. We make power level at 25% of the PC's level for 1 point. This is our base cost. Next we do frequency of appearance of Constantly, which is x 4. Our cost is now 4 points.

Then we apply the special modifier of Summonable, which is +100% (note this is expressed as +100% and not as x 2, so it works differently than frequency of appearance). This is explained on p. B101. "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects....this is expressed as a percentage. For instance, a +20% enhancement would increase the point cost of an advantage by 1/5 its base cost...." So the +100% enhancement of Summonable would increase the point cost of the Ally advantage by 1 times its base cost. The base cost is 1, and 1 times 1 is 1. So Summonable increased the cost by 1 pt.

Thus we have a cost of 4 pts. + 1 pt. for a total of 5 pts.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

That's what I thought at first. But after relooking at it I don't believe so now.

If you look at p. B36 under Frequency of Appearance it says, "Frequency of appearance multiplies the point cost for an Associated NPC (p. 31) after determining power level and group size (as applicable) but before you apply any special modifiers." (Italics are the book's).

So let's start with Ally. We make power level at 25% of the PC's level for 1 point. This is our base cost. Next we do frequency of appearance of Constantly, which is x 4. Our cost is now 4 points.

Then we apply the special modifier of Summonable, which is +100% (note this is expressed as +100% and not as x 2, so it works differently than frequency of appearance). This is explained on p. B101. "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects....this is expressed as a percentage. For instance, a +20% enhancement would increase the point cost of an advantage by 1/5 its base cost...." So the +100% enhancement of Summonable would increase the point cost of the Ally advantage by 1 times its base cost. The base cost is 1, and 1 times 1 is 1. So Summonable increased the cost by 1 pt.

Thus we have a cost of 4 pts. + 1 pt. for a total of 5 pts.

No, it's 4 pts +100% = 8 pts. "Frequency of appearance multiplies the point cost for an Associated NPC (p. 31) after determining power level and group size (as applicable) but before you apply any special modifiers." You multiply the point cost for frequency of appearance, then you apply special modifiers such as Minion and Summonable. For all intents and purposes, the cost after taking Frequency into account is the base cost.

[BaHalus]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

That's what I thought at first. But after relooking at it I don't believe so now.

If you look at p. B36 under Frequency of Appearance it says, "Frequency of appearance multiplies the point cost for an Associated NPC (p. 31) after determining power level and group size (as applicable) but before you apply any special modifiers." (Italics are the book's).

So let's start with Ally. We make power level at 25% of the PC's level for 1 point. This is our base cost. Next we do frequency of appearance of Constantly, which is x 4. Our cost is now 4 points.

Then we apply the special modifier of Summonable, which is +100% (note this is expressed as +100% and not as x 2, so it works differently than frequency of appearance). This is explained on p. B101. "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects....this is expressed as a percentage. For instance, a +20% enhancement would increase the point cost of an advantage by 1/5 its base cost...." So the +100% enhancement of Summonable would increase the point cost of the Ally advantage by 1 times its base cost. The base cost is 1, and 1 times 1 is 1. So Summonable increased the cost by 1 pt.

Thus we have a cost of 4 pts. + 1 pt. for a total of 5 pts.

The mods are in percentage because they stack with each other.
+100% -50% = +50%
*2 /2 = *1

It produces different results.

But I should Thank you, now I understood the optional rules for multiplicative modifiers on page 102 of GURPS POWERS!

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by vitruvian

No, it's 4 pts +100% = 8 pts. "Frequency of appearance multiplies the point cost for an Associated NPC (p. 31) after determining power level and group size (as applicable) but before you apply any special modifiers." You multiply the point cost for frequency of appearance, then you apply special modifiers such as Minion and Summonable. For all intents and purposes, the cost after taking Frequency into account is the base cost.

It would be pointless for us to get into an "I'm right and you're wrong" type of argument. But I will point out some examples of what I mean.

Under Modifiers on p. B101, it says, "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects."

Look at how the term "base cost" is used under Reaction Modifier on p. B27, Contacts on p. B44, Detect on p. B48, Extra Arms on p. B53, Modular Abilities on p. B71, Resistant on pp. B80-81. In all these cases the "base cost" is the amount of points to which you start applying modifiers. The amount of points to which you start applying modifiers under Allies is determined by Point Total of the Ally in relationship to the PC as listed under Ally's Power on p. B37. In fact that is the only place in Allies where points are specified. The rest of it has two types of modifiers, which are * X (where X is a straight number) and +/- Y (where Y is a percentage). As described in my post above these work differently.

Note the term "modifiers" and "special modifiers" are used in different ways. All "special modifiers" are modifiers but not all modifiers are special.

[Alden Loveshade]

Originally Posted by BaHalus

The mods are in percentage because they stack with each other.
+100% -50% = +50%
*2 /2 = *1

It produces different results.

But I should Thank you, now I understood the optional rules for multiplicative modifiers on page 102 of GURPS POWERS!

I agree. And you're welcome.

[BaHalus]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

It would be pointless for us to get into an "I'm right and you're wrong" type of argument. But I will point out some examples of what I mean.

Under Modifiers on p. B101, it says, "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects."

Look at how the term "base cost" is used under Reaction Modifier on p. B27, Contacts on p. B44, Detect on p. B48, Extra Arms on p. B53, Modular Abilities on p. B71, Resistant on pp. B80-81. In all these cases the "base cost" is the amount of points to which you start applying modifiers. The amount of points to which you start applying modifiers under Allies is determined by Point Total of the Ally in relationship to the PC as listed under Ally's Power on p. B37. In fact that is the only place in Allies where points are specified. The rest of it has two types of modifiers, which are * X (where X is a straight number) and +/- Y (where Y is a percentage). As described in my post above these work differently.

Note the term "modifiers" and "special modifiers" are used in different ways. All "special modifiers" are modifiers but not all modifiers are special.

As I remember, special modifiers are specific modifiers. Modifiers of a particular advantage, power or whatever. The other modifiers can be aplied in almost everything.

Special modifiers are listed with its advantage, power or whatever.
Normal modifiers are listed in a list of modifiers.

[vitruvian]

Originally Posted by Alden_Loveshade

It would be pointless for us to get into an "I'm right and you're wrong" type of argument. But I will point out some examples of what I mean.

Under Modifiers on p. B101, it says, "Modifiers adjust the base cost of a trait in proportion to their effects."

Look at how the term "base cost" is used under Reaction Modifier on p. B27, Contacts on p. B44, Detect on p. B48, Extra Arms on p. B53, Modular Abilities on p. B71, Resistant on pp. B80-81. In all these cases the "base cost" is the amount of points to which you start applying modifiers. The amount of points to which you start applying modifiers under Allies is determined by Point Total of the Ally in relationship to the PC as listed under Ally's Power on p. B37. In fact that is the only place in Allies where points are specified. The rest of it has two types of modifiers, which are * X (where X is a straight number) and +/- Y (where Y is a percentage). As described in my post above these work differently.

Note the term "modifiers" and "special modifiers" are used in different ways. All "special modifiers" are modifiers but not all modifiers are special.

Check some example characters and templates from the various books, and you'll see that the Frequency multiplier is included in the base cost before applying percentage modifiers. Unless you want to say that all the templates in, say, DF:Summoners are wrong.