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Old 09-14-2010, 02:49 PM   #41
Sunrunners_Fire
 
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
It's not a special effect though. It's a perfectly normal and physically realistic consequence of certain Advantages. The mere fact that originally no crunch was provided that covered it specifically doesn't change the nature of the Advantage.
By the rules I can purchase Temperature Control and decrease an area's temperature to absolute zero (0 Kelvin). It doesn't even cost very much.

However, also by the rules, that temperature change does not inflict any damage.

If I want it to do so, I must purchase an innate attack. I may be able to purchase that innate attack as an alternate power, but if I want damage I pay for damage. If I want temp change, I pay for temp change. Never do the two connect.

There is no difference. If you want damage, you pay for an attack. If you want an effect, you pay for that effect. You only get what you pay for. Nothing else.

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This is the very same analysis if someone running very fast actually throws something forward instead of just letting it go.
I would argue that if the super-speedster wants to use their super-speed to do damage, then they can either buy an appropriate attack power as an alternate attack or have the GM enable the power-stunt campaign option that lets them stunt an alternate use for their super-speed.

It doesn't matter what physics say. Physics say that a super-speedster would kill themselves by sheer air friction. Don't even get into the consequences for turning on a dime (which a number of them can do) at those speeds.

Physics doesn't apply.

Last edited by Sunrunners_Fire; 09-14-2010 at 02:55 PM. Reason: Finished a thought.
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Old 09-14-2010, 02:57 PM   #42
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
By the rules I can purchase Temperature Control and decrease an area's temperature to absolute zero (0 Kelvin).
IDHMBWM, but if the description says you can, then you can.

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However, also by the rules, that temperature change does not inflict any damage.
How could it fail to, if someone susceptible to cold was in the area of effect? Note, this question applies equally well no matter what the exact temperature -- an alien plant suscptible to temperatures below 20C would, presumably, suffer whatever the normal consequences are of being in an area where the temperature is lowered to 10C.

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You only get what you pay for. Nothing else.
You get what the rules say, nothing else.

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I would argue that if the super-speedster wants to use their super-speed to do damage, then they can either buy an appropriate attack power as an alternate attack or have the GM enable the power-stunt campaign option that lets them stunt an alternate use for their super-speed.
Let's say a super speedster is carrying a 5 pound iron ball. He runs at top speed right up to a plate-glass window and lets go of the ball, putting on his own brakes at the last possible instant. What happens to the ball and the glass, in your setting?
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:13 PM   #43
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
How could it fail to, if someone susceptible to cold was in the area of effect? Note, this question applies equally well no matter what the exact temperature -- an alien plant suscptible to temperatures below 20C would, presumably, suffer whatever the normal consequences are of being in an area where the temperature is lowered to 10C.
The effects of cold as a hazard would go into effect for characters that are vulnerable to metabolic hazards. The effects of all energy being suspended aren't defined by the rules (or really by physics), though. A more significant problem is that the effects of temperature on materials aren't defined by the rules at all except as damage.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:15 PM   #44
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
That is not the standard way that GURPS is played. The rules include all sorts of traits that don't carry their implications under the laws of physics along with them.
I'm not sure what cases you are considering. I can't recall any that by implication expunge the very essential consequences of what they mean.

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A trait means only what it is defined as meaning under the game mechanics.
Adding Basic Speed means I can move myself or my parts faster. If I can move my hands faster, to say that I can't move the things IN my hands faster along with them is an absurdity.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:20 PM   #45
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Let's say a super speedster is carrying a 5 pound iron ball. He runs at top speed right up to a plate-glass window and lets go of the ball, putting on his own brakes at the last possible instant. What happens to the ball and the glass, in your setting?
Depends on the speedster. Speedsters that want to take advantage of the effects of momentum better be willing to put up with the logical consequences too. Let's have realistic stopping/turning, full momentum stop unless you want to treat anything you're picking/catching up as a slam, and checks for falling if you get hit.

OTOH, if you want to 4 color it where where you can safely catch falling damsels and pick up objects in ways without regard to their ability to support their own weight it's a small matter to disregard momentum of dropped objects.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:22 PM   #46
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
How could it fail to, if someone susceptible to cold was in the area of effect? Note, this question applies equally well no matter what the exact temperature -- an alien plant susceptible to temperatures below 20C would, presumably, suffer whatever the normal consequences are of being in an area where the temperature is lowered to 10C.
Absent other game mechanics interacting (that susceptibility you mention), the only effect it has is environmental. Cold Hazards, Basic, page 430.

Even if Temperature Control was enabled to do damage, there is no way to calculate how much damage it does ... Absolute Zero means no molecular movement. At all. Believed to be absolutely impossible to occur in our (real-world) universe.

Likewise, there is no way to calculate how much damage being immersed in solar plasma (5,500 Kelvins) does. Another temperature Temperature Control can get you to for not so many point.

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You get what the rules say, nothing else.
I fail to see the difference between "what the rules say" and "what you pay for".

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Let's say a super speedster is carrying a 5 pound iron ball. He runs at top speed right up to a plate-glass window and lets go of the ball, putting on his own brakes at the last possible instant. What happens to the ball and the glass, in your setting?
I would charge the super-speedster two fatigue (for using a power technique / power enhancement), and have them roll either DX or an appropriate Innate Attack skill at a penalty (I'd use the speed penalty listed on the same page as the Size/Speed table).
  • Success means they do (innate attack dice of damage that costs an amount equal to the total of the relevant super-speed advantages point costs).
  • Failure means the ball stops when they do.
  • Critical Success would have the normal effects on an attack.
  • Critical Failure means they don't stop either thereby slamming into the wall and glass at full speed.
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:37 PM   #47
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
Adding Basic Speed means I can move myself or my parts faster. If I can move my hands faster, to say that I can't move the things IN my hands faster along with them is an absurdity.
Real world physics demands that you it takes greater force (Strength) to move an object in your hands faster.

GURPS does not assume that Speed and Strength go together because not every campaign is guided by the rules of physics (Supers games in particular.)
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Old 09-14-2010, 03:59 PM   #48
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Sunrunners_Fire View Post
Absent other game mechanics interacting (that susceptibility you mention), the only effect it has is environmental. Cold Hazards, Basic, page 430.
Yes. But it does have that effect. The fact that it doesn't do attack damage is because attack damage is itself a cinematic thing that you buy as an advantage, not the natural consequence of lowering temperature -- which does apply.

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I fail to see the difference between "what the rules say" and "what you pay for".
One is written down, the other would appear to be a matter of pure opinion.

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...[*]Failure means the ball stops when they do.
How?
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:01 PM   #49
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by aesir23 View Post
Real world physics demands that you it takes greater force (Strength) to move an object in your hands faster.
So you would posit that the speedster can throw a penny at normal speed, but is unable to throw it at any higher speed because his speed doesn't cover any weight in addition to his body? So then any encumbrance would preclude his speed advantage too?
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Old 09-14-2010, 04:04 PM   #50
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Default Re: Super Speedster: Throwing

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Originally Posted by Figleaf23 View Post
So you would posit that the speedster can throw a penny at normal speed, but is unable to throw it at any higher speed because his speed doesn't cover any weight in addition to his body? So then any encumbrance would preclude his speed advantage too?
I would postulate that a speedster either (a) should have super-strength, (b) should have super-low weight, or (c) isn't obeying real-world physics. If (a) is true, the thrown object problem takes care of itself. If (b) is true, yes, encumbrance will cause problems for his speed. If (c) is true, there's no reason to assume that the penny retains its velocity when released in the first place.
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