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Old 10-31-2019, 01:33 AM   #41
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
So how about some examples? By RAW:

Wizard with Magery 1 and Fireball at skills 15, 25, and 35.

Fireball 15. On turn one of casting he can 'invest' up to 3 FP into the spell (and get a cost reduction of 1). So, when he successfully casts it, Fireball costs him 2 FP, but is cast at 3d damage.

He can then continue to enlarge it for two more turns at a maximum of 1 FP per turn to a maximum of 5d damage, maximum cost of 4 FP. Minimum cost 0FP for a 1d Fireball.
I'm already lost at this point. I don't understand which 4E text supports getting 3 dice in the first second? B247/M75 don't mention being able to invest 3 FP in the 1st second... only "up to your Magery level"... which is "up to 1" with Magery 1, and only "up to 3" with Magery 3.

There isn't any base amount of >1 dice options that I can see, as compared to say:

M91 Minor Healing: 1-3 energy may be spent to heal 1-3 HP, Magery 4 allows spending 4 energy to heal 4 HP

M91 Major Healing: 1-4 energy may be spent to heal 2-8 HP, Magery 5 allows spending 5 energy to heal 10 HP

M167 Shield: 2-8 energy to impart 1-4 DB, Magery 5 allows spending 10 energy to get a DB of 5

M167 Armor: 2-10 energy to impart 1-5 DR, Magery 6 would allow 12 energy to impart DR 6
I think that's why M9's "Magery and Effect" uses Major Healing as an example...
The upper limit is the higher of the standard number of levels or the caster’s Magery level.
I don't think there IS a higher of the two?

The "standard number of levels" is already defined by magery from the outset (1 to Magery) it isn't like Minor/Major Healing or Shield/Armor where you have the option for >1 levels from the outset without needing Magery to buy a level-2 version.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
In previous editions missile spells literally cost 1 FP per turn that you built them and you rolled the skill at the end. So a Fireball at most was 3d and cost 3 FP (minus reductions).

This was changed... but so was Magery affecting how much FP could be spent into "leveled" spells.
Right, which I think I understand well enough when it happens with Healing or DR, since they begin with finite levels higher than 1 linked to energy expenditure, and Magery higher than those levels lets you spend more energy to get those bigger effects.

I just don't see the "higher than 1" starting levels for any missile spells in Basic Set of Magic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evileeyore View Post
So pg 9 says: "Talented mages may exceed the usual limits for spells that allow a finite number of “levels of effect” (dice of damage, bonuses to skill, etc.). The upper limit is the higher of the standard number of levels or the caster’s Magery level."

While pg 12 says: "On a success, you may invest one or more points of energy in the spell, to a maximum of a number of energy points equal to your Magery level."

Most of us resolve this conflict as pg 9 taking precedence and pg 12 just being a poorly worded reinforcement of it, kinda like so: You can spend the leveled spells normal casting cost or up to your Magery, whichever is higher; and note, missile spells are all leveled spells.
The only finite level cap on missile spells I can see is based on how much energy your Magery lets you put into them...

Which seems to be what pg 12 is talking about?
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Old 10-31-2019, 04:31 PM   #42
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

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Originally Posted by Plane View Post
I'm already lost at this point. I don't understand which 4E text supports getting 3 dice in the first second? B247/M75 don't mention being able to invest 3 FP in the 1st second... only "up to your Magery level"... which is "up to 1" with Magery 1, and only "up to 3" with Magery 3.
Magic pg 9, Magery and Effect:
"Talented mages may exceed the usual limits for spells that allow a finite number of “levels of effect” (dice of damage, bonuses to skill, etc.). The upper limit is the higher of the standard number of levels or the caster’s Magery level."

Quote:
There isn't any base amount of >1 dice options that I can see, as compared to say:
Missiles are leveled at (roughly) 1 FP per 1d. 1-3 FP being the base cost is a leveled cost.
[EDIT]
Sigh. I'm wrong, as I finally realize and note below.
[/EDIT]

Quote:
I don't think there IS a higher of the two?
What? You just listed a number of spells that have a "higher of the two".

Minor Healing has 3 levels, cost 1-3, 1 FP, 2 FP, or 3 FP. If you have Magery 5, you can also cast it at 4 Fp and 5 FP.

The 'higher of the two' is either 3 (Minor Healing's maximum base cost) or your Magery.

This is the same for Fireball.

--screeching sound--

Hang on. I was looking at the casting time. Dammit. Okay...

Yup. You're right, with Skill 20 and Magery 1 there is a "cost reduction waste" on the first turn.*

I have no idea why every time I looked at Fireball I saw "1 to 3" as the casting cost. I blame insomnia.


* So the lesson here is by RAW, don't outpace your skill over your Magery if you're a missile mage.

Last edited by evileeyore; 10-31-2019 at 04:36 PM.
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Old 11-01-2019, 01:12 AM   #43
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

Pg 7 of Artillery Spells is probably more clearly phrased:

Missile spells are an important exception. They should be capable of the standard 1d per Magery level per turn, for three turns – in effect, maximum damage is 3d x Magery.
Who knows if that's written with -1 to cost from skill 15 in mind though? What if the maximum dice was 3*Magery+discount rather than 3*Magery?

IE magery controls how much energy THE MAGE puts in, but the discount reflects energy a mage directs into a spell from the surrounding mana (rather than himself) so what if he could always put in his 3*Magery amount and then the discount was an additional amount on top of it?

That way you'd never have to waste that discount unless you wanted a lower-damage spell.

That would also operate like an interesting substitute if you don't like the idea of all Magery 0 guys being able to use missile spells like Concussion: maybe they'd need concussion at 15 (the -1 to cost allowing them to pump 1 energy into the spell from the mana, even though they can't personally contribute) to use it?
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Old 11-01-2019, 09:42 AM   #44
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

Decent houserules, but they seem overly complex.
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Old 11-02-2019, 03:30 PM   #45
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Default Re: how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

Given that it's a perk ("Power Casting") to basically get +1 to magery only for one spell ONLY for the purpose of determining the energy you can invest in it (ie effectively a -90% limitation) we could compare that to the idea of getting variable amounts of power casting tied to your skill level in the spell...

Such a perk would be of no help at all if skill was below 15, equal to Power Casting at 15-19, to two levels of Power Casting at skill 20-25, and so on...

The idea that cost deductions are 1 per (skill-10)/5 rounded down... I'm not entirely sure how to price it, or if maybe the way "Margin-Based" works on leveled enhancements for Afflictions could be of some help.

Power Casting 5 (Requires Skill Roll -10%; Takes Extra Time -10%) [4] is one thing that comes to mind, but that seems very all-or-nothing (either you can put in +4 energy, or no extra at all) so there should be a way where the MoS on your skill roll determines the extra energy which can be put in.

Affliction (Margin-Based Advantage: Power Casting (Fireball) +30% Mana-Sensitive -10%) [12] would give (since it's a Beneficial Affliction) a mage the ability to invest MoS more energy/second into Fireballs for MoS minutes, basically?

Contact Agent -20% would bring that down to [10] if you had to shoot a mage's skin to impart this benefit...

you could probably also take Reduced Duration 1/30 -30% so that it only lasts MoS*2 seconds instead of MoS minutes. That would bring price down to [7]...

Then you have a couple options for range...
1) take -50% from Reduced Range 1/10 -30% Inaccurate2 -10% Blockable -5% Parryable -5%
2) take -35% from Melee Attack -30%

That would reduce it to either [2] or [4].

Not sure if that would require "Affects Self +50%" like Healing does (P51) if you wanted to self-buff with it, if so that'd add 5 points.
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