how does -1/-2 yard range reduction with staff work with missile/jet spells?

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kale

Since the spells have their own innate ACC value it wouldn't make sense to apply one for using a staff too.

Why not? Plenty of things can modify Acc.

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Anthony

Why not? Plenty of things can modify Acc.

It's sort-of like others said previously, where a spell is aimed by the mind. The staff is really just a prop so you aren't really 'aiming' with it per se.

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kale

It's sort-of like others said previously, where a spell is aimed by the mind.

Innate Attack is a DX skill.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by Kale

Since the spells have their own innate ACC value it wouldn't make sense to apply one for using a staff too.

Staff scopes should totally be a thing.

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Plane

So... should there be some benefit to actually making a big fastball-windup motion when actually doing this, to match the text?

To match what text?

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by martinl

Staff scopes should totally be a thing.

Iron Sights on the Iron Shodding...

[Plane]

One thing that might help illustration some differences is observing the difference between the WC2 animations for Death Knights vs Mages

In both cases they use staffs held left-handed and appear to thrust their arms forward when shooting blasts with them.

In the case of the Death Knight though, you can see his right hand is basically immobile and I believe it's intended to be clutching the reigns of his horse. The energy blast he fires appears to originate purely from his staff.

The mage, on the other hand, you can see that his right hand is moving and there is an arc of energy connecting his hand to the staff. Like he's creating the energy blast in his right hand and then pushing it through the tip of his staff towards his target. In this case, it doesn't look like he'd have his right hand free to hold a shield or the reigns of a horse or anything like that, because it's involved in holding the initial energy charge before the staff then simply directs it.

Maybe this could illustrate BOTH options of a staff? Perhaps if you hold a staff, you could opt to shoot a Lightning Bolt either directly from the tip of your staff, or STILL get the range bonus if you want to use your free hand to create the bolt and channel it through the tip of the staff, with the lining up the shot giving an accuracy bonus?

The benefit to "two handed" use could be to avoid off-hand penalties (for example, if the Death Knight is right-handed and only using his left hand to shoot, he would be -4 to hit, right? I guess it's more important for him to avoid the -4 for his Horsemanship) by holding the staff in the off hand but using Innate Attack with your best hand.

The downside to it, however, could be that it counts as an attack with both limbs (like Two-Handed Punch?) in a situation where that comes up, and of course the hand must be free and not in use gripping reigns (sorry Death Knight) or holding a sword (sorry Gandalf) or Buckler.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

To match what text?

B240's description of Missile Spells doesn't use the verb throw, and B244's description of Lightning Bolt seems consistent with that ("shoot" from "fingertip") so I must've gotten that image from B247's description of Fireball and Explosive Fireball which both use it.

If we look past that and assume that they work the same basic way (you can point your arm, elbow-locked, immobile, at someone, and the Missile Spell will propel from you without any gesture) then getting some kind of bonus to hit with it based on a successful Throwing roll (similar to Acrobatics success giving a bonus to Acrobatic Dodge) would add some interesting variety as an optional rule.

Like with Acrobatic Dodge, that could also turn into a penalty if you FAIL the (optional) throwing roll?

Even though you're not actually throwing something, if the process of going through the motions (like shadow boxing) somehow helped direct the missile, to explain why we see some mages doing elaborate gestures while actually throwing projectiles.

Although gestures are used in CASTING spells (for those with low skill), it doesn't seem like the process of actually throwing a missile spell (you use an Attack and not a Concentrate) is actually casting, so you wouldn't need to use hand gestures or footwork or magic words when actually lobbing the fireball... but mages who do that too should be doing it for a reason.

I don't even know if you count as casting the spell (gestures/words) when enlargening it. That would be an important consideration for scrolls since they only vanish when you finish casting a spell, and you need that to happen to free your hands to hold the missile.

On the other hand, discounts DO come off the final cost, so the Enlarge1+Enlarge2 followup Concentrates might still count as casting, but maybe scrolls vanish after the first turn because that's an optional state of completion?

A mage who needs to keep chanting/gesturing while doing Enlarge+Enlarge for 2 more seconds is at a disadvantage compared to one who doesn't, so defining both of those situations would also add interesting variation to mages.

[Kale]

Originally Posted by Dalin

For what it's worth, in a discussion about Halfling Marksmanship, Kromm clarified that Innate Attack is not a physical throw:

Originally Posted by Kromm
Innate Attack is the skill of ritually "directing" such effects, not physically projecting them, which is handled by the spells themselves.

Originally Posted by Anthony

Innate Attack is a DX skill.

Yes, but there is a Perk that lets you shift that to IQ. In the Halfling thread it was discussed that it is possible for a mage to 'psychically' direct a missile spell (using that perk), and that the finger/staff pointing is more crutch to the mage to help them mentally focus. Of course that is just one interpretation of how a mage directs spells:

Originally Posted by martinl

Staff scopes should totally be a thing.

Originally Posted by evileeyore

Iron Sights on the Iron Shodding...

In the interests of Rule of Cool, you could say that it is purely physical and let Mages add all sorts of tacticool gadgets to their staffs to help them aim. I chuckle at the thought of a wizard's staff with a scope, bipod, wind gauge, etc.
Or if you want solemn archmages directing fireballs with their eyebrows, go for the former method. Lots of room for flavor here!

[evileeyore]

Originally Posted by Plane

B240's description of Missile Spells doesn't use the verb throw, and B244's description of Lightning Bolt seems consistent with that ("shoot" from "fingertip") so I must've gotten that image from B247's description of Fireball and Explosive Fireball which both use it.

Probably

If we look past that and assume that they work the same basic way (you can point your arm, elbow-locked, immobile, at someone, and the Missile Spell will propel from you without any gesture) then getting some kind of bonus to hit with it based on a successful Throwing roll (similar to Acrobatics success giving a bonus to Acrobatic Dodge) would add some interesting variety as an optional rule.

I have begun to come to the idea that more rolling at the table is not a good thing.

I don't even know if you count as casting the spell (gestures/words) when enlargening it.

You don't. As has been mention time and again, (by RAW) you roll to cast before the enlargement rounds so the spell is already cast.

A mage who needs to keep chanting/gesturing while doing Enlarge+Enlarge for 2 more seconds is at a disadvantage compared to one who doesn't, so defining both of those situations would also add interesting variation to mages.

In what manner? Both are (if enlargening) taking Concentration maneuvers, so by the RAW both are as "distracted/encumbered/unable to act" as the other.


Now... if Enlargening was disruptable, and being attacked required a Will roll to not drop the Missile, similar to a Will roll to keep casting on a long cast spell... then being able to embiggen the Missile without being obvious about it could be of use.

For instance if they only get the "cost reduction" by continuing to make skill rolls each Enlargement round and could be disrupted...

[Anthony]

Originally Posted by Kale

Yes, but there is a Perk that lets you shift that to IQ.

Citation? I've never seen anything of the sort though I don't have PU:Perks, and it seems ridiculously unbalanced.