Free Will and the GMG

JCD · 08-27-2010, 07:24 AM

In the GMG, there is a section on Free Will in humans:

Quote:

In a standard In Nomine campaign, a demon with a high Will can make a human with a low Will do nearly anything. No matter how virtuous the human, a Shedite can ruin his life in seconds, and a demon of Factions can destroy the most selfless love with a single application of his power.

It then goes on to describe ways to curtail the power of diabolicals. I am torn. On the one hand, I like free will. My demon tries to corrupt people, but they have to want to be corrupted, or at least agree with it. On the other...yeah, I like power too. Moulding the poor hapless mortals to my will is a rush.

How many of you find that section useful? Do you have other mechanisms to change the game, or are you happy to let a Habbalah, an Impudite or a Belseraph run roughshod over the crunchy human minions? Or do most of you play angelic campaigns, so demonic influence really isn't an issue?

*One could rule that 'True Love' makes one immune to certain attunements, resonances or abilities.

* An less intrusive way would be adjusting the resistance of the resistance roll, or even allowing a resistance roll. (Though the low stats of humans tends to make these resistance rolls a joke)

Any examples from play?

Rocket Man · 08-27-2010, 07:32 AM

One way I've proposed in the past is to allow mortal characters to have a Duty ... some aspect of their lives where their dedication makes it harder to move them. A police officer might see herself as having a Duty to the department, or an especially faithful and loving husband might have a Duty to his wife. (In game terms, it functions as a limited Blessed, strengthening the Will roll to resist.)

The thought came to my mind after a Bright Lilim PC began distracting a police officer with little "accidentally seductive" moves and I realized that many officers I knew in real life would be professional enough to put that aside ... or worse, would see it as an attempt to influence an officer! Something seemed out of kilter; this looked like a good solution.

I generally do angelic campaigns, but free will still has some importance -- after all, you have to account for what your bad guys have been doing in the background! Using this, evil can still do a lot (especially to the uncommitted), but may occasionally have to get creative to work around some roadblocks.

Jason · 08-27-2010, 07:42 AM

I have thought a lot about that section, but ultimately decided to ignore it. I realize a resonance isn't scientific by any means, but it actually veers into the realm of the unbelievable for me to suggest that humans should be any more resistant to demonic influence than they already are in game terms. It's not that I believe in literal demons, but that it's relatively easy to manipulate humans just by pressing on random spots of the brain. A mundane tumor can change a person's behavior, even personality, but I'd similarly argue that they wouldn't be able to fulfill their Destiny or Fate under such influences. (Makes me wonder whether Shedim of Disease used to be able to leave behind the seed of such a tumor in hosts' brains before leaving ... *shudder*.)

That said, I really like Rocket Man's Duty concept, and would definitely use it if the need arose.

Azel · 08-28-2010, 02:45 AM

A lot of the powers in RPGs just really have to be taken as, "it's just the mechanics." If you really tried to rationalize a lot of the stuff available then you start going from fantasy into near-future plausible science fiction. Basically, abilities are "magic". Trying to argue about them too much just invites rules lawyering (and god forbid, munchkinism).

For myself, yeah demons can stomp all over a measly human's psyche. If you want to role play that down to the last bit, you can say demons are intimately familiar with the way to justify their own lies (their demonic perspective). And by being so familiar with their own justification, they can easily make a human fall for the same temptations, false logic, and emotional hot buttons.

To avoid too much abuse (hey, if the PCs are demons, they should get away with a significant amount of human abuse), I tend to run an analogous mental exercise as I would with celestials with human servants. Human servants do resist particularly egregious requests, which does take into account the servant's moral code. The defining difference is that the level of servitude is a penalty against their will roll.

For regular humans just raise the TN. I tend to keep TN raises within +1~6, and ignore doubled will as a ceiling. I.e. give a human with a will of 1 a +6 TN (minimum) to resist killing themselves and all they love, a TN of 7 -- an even shot to avoid demons pushing humans into mass murdering killing sprees all over town. And it makes taking Song of Celestial Charm useful on humans for really big requests, not just celestials. Since I want to encourage more thinking and subtle effects in my game, I prefer this sort of method because smaller effects are easier to collect and build upon (and harder to trace).

Archangel Beth · 08-28-2010, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jason

(Makes me wonder whether Shedim of Disease used to be able to leave behind the seed of such a tumor in hosts' brains before leaving ... *shudder*.)

Oh, that's niiiiiice. *gives Jason a slimy cookie*

Jason · 08-28-2010, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

Oh, that's niiiiiice. *gives Jason a slimy cookie*

Me: "Um ... Do I eat the slimy cookie?"
My girlfriend, reading over my shoulder: "She lives in New Hampshire! We should hang out."

*eats the slimy cookie*

Archangel Beth · 08-29-2010, 08:34 AM

When I can get the Impufanite Celestial of Clutter to turn off her Word for a while, I want to start gaming again. This... may take some time. O:(

(And it's a *good* kind of slime! Really!)

JCD · 08-29-2010, 08:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

When I can get the Impufanite Celestial of Clutter to turn off her Word for a while, I want to start gaming again. This... may take some time. O:(

(And it's a *good* kind of slime! Really!)

You need the Word of Trash Cans...but I want her to visit first...

Archangel Beth · 08-29-2010, 08:57 AM

No, no, it's not *trash* that's Clutter. Mostly, at least. It's all the Non-Trash STUFF... It's like Under Eli's Bed, only without the infinite space.

JCD · 08-29-2010, 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Archangel Beth

No, no, it's not *trash* that's Clutter. Mostly, at least. It's all the Non-Trash STUFF... It's like Under Eli's Bed, only without the infinite space.

Funny, that is what Herself says too...even things we haven't touched or used for two years. There is an expiration date on 'clutter.' YMMV

***

How do you run Free Will in the game? (getting back on target)

08-27-2010, 07:32 AM	#2
Rocket Man Petitioner: Word of IN Filk Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Longmont, CO	Re: Free Will and the GMG One way I've proposed in the past is to allow mortal characters to have a Duty ... some aspect of their lives where their dedication makes it harder to move them. A police officer might see herself as having a Duty to the department, or an especially faithful and loving husband might have a Duty to his wife. (In game terms, it functions as a limited Blessed, strengthening the Will roll to resist.) The thought came to my mind after a Bright Lilim PC began distracting a police officer with little "accidentally seductive" moves and I realized that many officers I knew in real life would be professional enough to put that aside ... or worse, would see it as an attempt to influence an officer! Something seemed out of kilter; this looked like a good solution. I generally do angelic campaigns, but free will still has some importance -- after all, you have to account for what your bad guys have been doing in the background! Using this, evil can still do a lot (especially to the uncommitted), but may occasionally have to get creative to work around some roadblocks. __________________ “It's not railroading if you offer the PCs tickets and they stampede to the box office, waving their money. Metaphorically speaking” --Elizabeth McCoy, In Nomine Line Editor Author: "What Doesn't Kill Me Makes Me Stronger"

08-27-2010, 07:42 AM	#3
Jason Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Boston, MA	Re: Free Will and the GMG I have thought a lot about that section, but ultimately decided to ignore it. I realize a resonance isn't scientific by any means, but it actually veers into the realm of the unbelievable for me to suggest that humans should be any more resistant to demonic influence than they already are in game terms. It's not that I believe in literal demons, but that it's relatively easy to manipulate humans just by pressing on random spots of the brain. A mundane tumor can change a person's behavior, even personality, but I'd similarly argue that they wouldn't be able to fulfill their Destiny or Fate under such influences. (Makes me wonder whether Shedim of Disease used to be able to leave behind the seed of such a tumor in hosts' brains before leaving ... shudder.) That said, I really like Rocket Man's Duty concept, and would definitely use it if the need arose.

08-28-2010, 02:45 AM	#4
Azel Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: South of the Town across from the City by the Bay	Re: Free Will and the GMG A lot of the powers in RPGs just really have to be taken as, "it's just the mechanics." If you really tried to rationalize a lot of the stuff available then you start going from fantasy into near-future plausible science fiction. Basically, abilities are "magic". Trying to argue about them too much just invites rules lawyering (and god forbid, munchkinism). For myself, yeah demons can stomp all over a measly human's psyche. If you want to role play that down to the last bit, you can say demons are intimately familiar with the way to justify their own lies (their demonic perspective). And by being so familiar with their own justification, they can easily make a human fall for the same temptations, false logic, and emotional hot buttons. To avoid too much abuse (hey, if the PCs are demons, they should get away with a significant amount of human abuse), I tend to run an analogous mental exercise as I would with celestials with human servants. Human servants do resist particularly egregious requests, which does take into account the servant's moral code. The defining difference is that the level of servitude is a penalty against their will roll. For regular humans just raise the TN. I tend to keep TN raises within +1~6, and ignore doubled will as a ceiling. I.e. give a human with a will of 1 a +6 TN (minimum) to resist killing themselves and all they love, a TN of 7 -- an even shot to avoid demons pushing humans into mass murdering killing sprees all over town. And it makes taking Song of Celestial Charm useful on humans for really big requests, not just celestials. Since I want to encourage more thinking and subtle effects in my game, I prefer this sort of method because smaller effects are easier to collect and build upon (and harder to trace). Last edited by Azel; 08-28-2010 at 02:50 AM.

08-29-2010, 08:34 AM	#7
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: Free Will and the GMG When I can get the Impufanite Celestial of Clutter to turn off her Word for a while, I want to start gaming again. This... may take some time. O:( (And it's a good kind of slime! Really!) __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)

08-29-2010, 08:57 AM	#9
Archangel Beth In Nomine Line Editor Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Frozen Wastelands of NH	Re: Free Will and the GMG No, no, it's not trash that's Clutter. Mostly, at least. It's all the Non-Trash STUFF... It's like Under Eli's Bed, only without the infinite space. __________________ --Beth Shamelessly adding Superiors: Lilith, GURPS Sparrials, and her fiction page to her .sig (the latter is not precisely gaming related)