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Old 05-21-2010, 06:28 AM   #11
JCD
 
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

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Originally Posted by Jason View Post
I'm just hoping to find a way to make it fast by design, rather than fast because I'm rushing them. I have a couple of newbies to RPGs and combat either bores them or makes them anxious, and I'd like to not encourage "bad anxiety" by just telling everyone to go faster, you know? But yeah, I do need to tell the more deliberative players to kick it in gear.
Please excuse me, but you can't have hit both ways. When Tyler Tactician and Walter Warmonkey are both sitting there with their calculators to figure the best configuration of of skills and ranges, it takes something from the game.

There is a solution. First, the four count. Every person gets to the count of four to make a choice of what they want to do. You don't get a chance to be contemplative in the middle of a real fight.

As far as the newbies, they get a count of six and a flash card. The flash card has their target numbers for their fighting skills on it so they can make decisions in an informed fashion.

Re the negativity of anxiety? That is a feature, not a bug. Weren't you just complaining that they were bored by combat? About the third time Walter Warmonkey gets stuck just standing there getting used as a pinata by some Calabim because he was in the middle of a text or WoW, he might get the hint and, as you desire, pay attention and stay focused in the moment.

In response, you as a GM have a responsibility. The mechanics take a back seat to style. If and when they throw out some chandelier swinging and off the cuff manic stuff, you can't then stomp on them.

You also have to bring some game to the game. YOU need to be ready and willing to play fast. It doesn't do any good to have them respond in and instant...and then set out thinking hard on NPC skills and looking up stats. Think of the NPC tactics in advance.
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Old 05-22-2010, 04:51 PM   #12
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

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Please excuse me, but you can't have hit both ways. (…)
I suppose the tricky thing here is that some of my players lean toward anxious while others lean toward bored. I'm not inclined to agree that all anxiety is "good anxiety," though, for admittedly biased reasons -- my newest player happens to be my girlfriend, who gets VERY anxious when put on the spot, and it's a very different psychological response from when we're doing something that is anxiety-inducing in a fun way.

You're right that I could be exploiting my players' nervousness better, and maybe I am coddling my newbies a bit much, but I'm not sure I'm ready to give up on the idea that rushing through turn-based combat likely feels qualitatively different from a system that's actually designed to be simultaneous. Patrick Curry's Swordplay system is one interesting example of more fast-paced, simultaneous-feeling combat, though that one seems primarily set up for one-on-one fights. I'm just trying to explore other options.
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Old 05-23-2010, 07:27 PM   #13
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

I'd say that it sounds like your group isn't really a good fit for a combat-heavy adventure. That's perfectly OK -- not all conflict has to be handled with combat. It's also possible to give them plenty of practice dealing with situations where there isn't always ONE RIGHT ANSWER, but where they can make any number of choices that provide different paths to victory. It's sometimes a lot of work to come up with a situation for a group like that, and you'll have to get used to the fact that you're going to spend a lot of time coming up with decision trees that will be bypassed.

You don't have to get harsh with your newbies, but help them by making sure they have all the relevant information beforehand. You don't want to make them look in five different places for all the options, and punish them brutally if they screw up; instead, give them an easy list and make sure they understand what their choices mean. This may mean spoon-feeding them a little more than some of your more experienced players, but ideally, everyone's goal is to have fun, and if a few people need a little more help to get there, then the shared solidarity should be worth the extra effort.

Finally, there's no need to make every combat a long bloody slog to destruction; a rational opponent will often run away if it becomes obvious they can't win. Nothing encourages a timid fighter more than seeing the enemy turn and flee, after all. :)
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:31 AM   #14
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

The four-second suggestion reminded me of something that worked really well at a Cthulhu Live game I attended.

First you figure out initiative, who's going to go before whom. Then the players declare actions in reverse order of initiative i.e. the slowest must declare his action first. This allows the quicker ones to adjust their actions as might happen in a 'real' combat. The GM needs to keep a firm hand in this, having a mental timer if not a digital one and talking like an auctioneer or a really strict teacher. No hemming and hawing after the last guy has said his action--say what you want or your character just sits there in indecision.
With LARP however the NPC's have players attached to them and can take their turns along with the PC's--not too hard an adjustment here but you'll have to consciously have each NPC take his 'turn'.
Once the whole round's actions are declared, narrate the results.

And I would definitely disallow calculators, but that's me.
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:23 AM   #15
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

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Finally, there's no need to make every combat a long bloody slog to destruction; a rational opponent will often run away if it becomes obvious they can't win. Nothing encourages a timid fighter more than seeing the enemy turn and flee, after all. :)
Absolutely. If the demon(s) are outnumbered (and they frequently are), a few hacks and away. They can come back and work things out again later.

Honestly, combat should also include moral choices. Do they let the noob buy it who is overwhelmed just because they have a shot at taking out their target? Do they pursue after the demon left some critically wounded mundanes behind?

I think the index cards work best for the noobs. I forgot to add the Songs and attunements. It's nice for the GF to know she can disappear in a mass of flowers, or as a Seraph of War, can cleave effectively.

I was being wry about the calculators. IN is not GURPS or 4th edition.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:53 PM   #16
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

The index-card idea is probably a really good one. At least, it gives some ideas for flavor to me, for what that's worth. O:>

In online games, there's often a lot of die-rolling, but we try to give descriptions of what we're attempting -- http://www.io.com/~arcangel/GamingWa...SSO/SSO58.html has a certain amount of die rolling till we get to the Divine Intervention. The GM in a face-to-face game might have to get good at encouraging this, with some entertaining dialogue. (Without a GM who thinks on his/her feet for Cool Reactions to die-rolls, thus encouraging emotive "I attack in [x cool way]! *rolls dice*" from the players, index cards with emotive descriptions (as above!) would probably be the next best thing.)

(A note on that log: We used two die-rollers which are functionally identical. One is <<GAME>> and the other, after people complained there was a demonic bias to the dice, is <<JUDGMENT>>. People used whichever dice they felt would be most appropriate for them.

Another note... Yes, the Balseraph PC rolled a 111, and the Malakite PC rolled a 666.

And, at the end, are all the OOC comments that broke up the flow too much to keep. Including everyone howling at Liriel's 111.)

...some of the comments get a little raunchy, at the very end. Er. Be warned.
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Old 05-24-2010, 10:07 PM   #17
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

The problem I have is that I have such a varied group. I have two tacticians in the group. One of them my Elohite and the other my Malakite of Fire. My other Malakite in RL is an AMA fighter, so combat is very important to him. My Ofanite and Cherub pretty much go with the flow, but they get really intimidated by the others. My Seraph goes with the flow and doesn't stress either way but he prefers to fight, not as hardcore as my War Malakite, but he tends to wake up when combat is in the horizon.

I wouldn't mind doing meta combat, but my Malakim will raise the biggest stink. Because of that, and because the others HAVE to have their day in the sun, it wouldn't work for me, as much as I would love for it to. I would love for them to describe their actions and we can take it from there. I would be more than happy to roll dice to see if it works, if they resist and how long it all lasts then narrate it from there, (I think it would be simpler), but I don't think they would go for it. They hate things that are too simple.
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Old 05-28-2010, 02:36 AM   #18
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

been gone for a while -- graduations season. :)

i really like idea #4 with timed decisions simultaneously revealed (i like to think of this as Robo Rally mechanics). the way i would do it is with written notes revealed at the time limit. a few preset action flash cards would be nice to speed things along as well.

but Cthulhu's initiative rules can also be helpful, too; i've worked with those slowest-first, fastest-last rules and they're pretty fun. i'd make it a roll off of one's agi/pre/per set, making initiative a function of quick actions/reactions. i don't know if i'd use it every battle, because it is an extra roll/equation. but it's a great opportunity for more chaotic battles that need more concrete time grounding.

another thing that i've found that helps is already mentioned: environment. big "Dragonball Z" swaths of empty nothingness does make for a boring combat. then it becomes a number cruncher with everyone gasping whose "power has exceeded 9000, how can that be!?" using little miniatures, or at least crude paper drawings and tokens atop gives more visual grounding to imagine a more cinematic battle. throw in dymanic interactivity and you get more Powerstone than DBZ (forgive the video game references).

i also love the idea of indexes for new players. in fact, taking their current stats and making a little table out of it would be a good exercise for them to get familiar with the mechanics, as well as a visual aid. new players need the extra help with confidence, like training wheels. i am so stealing that idea!

another thing that i miss from good battles is something readily available in the system -- pretty much every system -- but so often gets ignored: flavor text and risk! IN difficulty modifiers work on a +or-2 swing. but often players feel they don't have much say to this, besides the Risk and Taking Time rules. i'd invite players to creatively describe what they are doing. in this way it gives me more leeway to reward creative roleplaying by boosting the Risk rules swing by more than 1 point in either direction. basically it'd be me hammering out difficulty roll and player's risk by how pleasing your description is. is it subjective? oh yes! but it does reward cinematic play!

in summary, most of the problems i've seen had been long winded discussions of tactics and die-grinding:

for talking, i favor simultaneous reveal of action (or sometimes initiative-based reveal), because i like the restrictions to the Out Of Character (OOC) discussion phase. it also gives added value to resources like Song of Battle, Tactics skill, Ethereal Song of Tongues, and speaking in celestial tongue as they would grant more OOC time for more complex coordination. i'd even use an egg timer or small hourglass to keep such OOC discussions from chewing up valuable game time.

if this leads to tension as battle hardened veterans feel newbies are holding them back, well, that's a roleplaying opportunity that they should discuss In Character (IC). it could make for dynamic tension, but also an opportunity for the veteran to roleplay some training for the new player, which in turn can increase familiarity with mechanics. if the Malakite takes the Mercurian to the shooting range it could end up being a whole sub-plot for both to learn to appreciate each other's different strengths...

die-grinding is a lot harder to control; it's either the mechanics work for you or you gotta shop around. without straying too far into other game systems, i still favor table miniatures and highly descriptive environments. and i prefer to favor players if they interact with said highly descriptive environments with highly descriptive actions (for together, they create highly descriptive scenes... >.> <.< one more time! "highly descriptive" :P). stories become engaging if you have a connection, and few things add connection than co-creation.
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Old 05-31-2010, 11:05 PM   #19
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

Just had the first meeting of a new campaign in a new setting tonight, and didn't have time to get any of the stuff together that we discussed in this thread. I figured I'd try things once with limited house rules to see how it went. The results were encouraging, but also leave me looking forward to trying more. Some points of possible interest:

New Body Hits Formula: Going by the normal Body Hits formula, one of the PCs only had 2 hits (upgradable to a measly 6 with 8 points worth of Toughness). I used another formula -- Str + CorF + (5 x Toughness or Vessel) -- and the low-power PCs were generally well padded, while high-powered enemies got lowered to a range that will take them less time to be whittled down.

Limited Dodge: Dodge is no longer a Skill for us. (Who goes home to practice dodging anyway?) That said, you can still roll against Agility to dodge once between each of your turns -- or more, with the standard +2 bonus, if you're doing nothing else but dodging. I told my players I could still give bonuses to dodging for people who come up with creative uses of Acrobatics or Fighting.

For anyone who's curious about our campaign war stories:

First, they met a lurker (a type of ghost from Liber Umbrarum). Amazingly, it failed to possess the character with the Easy to Possess disadvantage. It did get off Ethereal Entropy on another character, though. At this point, two players started prepping offensive Songs to get a higher target number next turn. The player who gets anxious in fight scenes (noted above) had her character run terrified from the room and look for help, which was probably decently in character. One player got very, very frustrated with me, and stopped the whole game to complain because I only gave everyone a few seconds to privately decide what they were going to do, as we discussed earlier in this thread. (This is the player who takes a million years to play board games, too, because he calculates the value of every move he could make before he completes his turn, but I can sympathize with the complaint that he didn't yet know all his new character's powers.)

The fight ended more quickly and impressively than I anticipated, however, because the other three PCs focused on calming the lurker. Nobody but me had read Liber Umbrarum, but my players cleverly decided that a ghost bent on hostility wouldn't be so bad if it weren't hostile, so they used Whispers of Inspiration (Fire attunement) and reassurances from a character with Paranormal Charm (Liber Umbrarum advantage) to offer soothing words, while a Habbalite used her resonance (with high check digit) to calm the ghost down. I had to give them credit for the triple-whammy and nonviolent solution, so that seemed like a good time for the fight to be over. Short, sweet, no whittling of hit points, but definitely some hostility and confusion (even a bit from the players who made out all right) with my new "quick quick quick go!" approach.

There was a second ... not even a fight scene, really, more like a scene of conflict, and that went even more smoothly. One character used the Obscurement Affinity to go invisible, which was instantly perceived by some (enemy) Soldiers of God nearby. Again, no real fighting involved -- just a couple Soldiers running headlong into an invisible guy trying like hell to run away, while the other PCs tried to create a distraction elsewhere with attunements and resonances that caused no disturbance (e.g., getting nearby humans to act like they were on fire).

Overall, I'm pretty proud of my players for where they ended up, but the general confusion and frustration they exhibited at first convinced me I should try out some new stuff next time. I'm considering the index cards idea (but maybe just keeping it to 4 for now -- ATTACK, DODGE, POWER, and IDEA!), though I think they eventually did a fine job thinking outside the box on how to use their powers in a jam, and how to win struggles without even necessarily fighting. I don't want to give a long time for them to plan how to act in a fight situation, but again, I can sympathize with the concern that they don't know their new characters very well yet. I think I may give initiative to whoever volunteers to go first, and if someone wants more time to think, they can pass temporarily and go at the end of the round.

As always, input is welcome. Thanks again to all for your feedback.

Last edited by Jason; 05-31-2010 at 11:07 PM. Reason: Missed a few words ... oops.
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Old 06-01-2010, 04:46 AM   #20
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Default Re: Alternatives to turn-based combat

When you get into combat, you don't have time to think of everything either. That is what training is for.

I recall a campaign where the players regularly went out and trained. Suggest that.
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