Death by advantage

[Daigoro]

Originally Posted by jeff_wilson

Walk on Air is included in "or another movement advantage", and of the forums' cast of thousands the only two to have a problem with it are you and Asta Kask. How much better could it get?

And it says you need "another movement advantage" to move around, which means that you need Walk on Air to move vertically, but logically, as you've adequately proven, you don't need it as it seems it's subsumed into the Permeation advantage already.

[Anders]

Then what's the point of the text saying "you are affected by gravity"? If you can use a simple application of the advantage to bypass that, the assertion seems needless.

[roguebfl]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Then what's the point of the text saying "you are affected by gravity"? If you can use a simple application of the advantage to bypass that, the assertion seems needless.

Becuase of you are useing it to selective make hand hold to 'climb' in side it... you can still fall for at least one round.

[Ts_]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Then what's the point of the text saying "you are affected by gravity"? If you can use a simple application of the advantage to bypass that, the assertion seems needless.

Well, you might Permeate (Metal) in a big sand desert made of 100% sand ... So it's good to know that you are still affected by Gravity, otherwise you would have no friction on the ground and would be stuck where you are. (You could, of course, jump vertically into the atmosphere ...)

IDHMBWM, but standard Insubstantiality does not include this "afflicted by gravity" thing, and insubstantial beings can move freely at Basic Move in all directions. (There is a "Only horizontal movement" limitation of some sort as well.)

That would explain it to me ...
Ts

[Not another shrubbery]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

I'm not sure why you are. It's so you can walk up and down imaginary steps inside the mountain you're permeating. It's modelling the game effects (3D movement at Move speed by moving your limbs in a perambulatory fashion), not the name of the advantage, so there doesn't actually have to be any air involved.

As jeff says, there is no need for any "Walk on xxx" with Permeation. The advantage assumes that you can selectively walk or climb up or down the material you are permeating through.* I had a strange idea that you were talking about having your legs dangling out of a rocky overhang while your body was permeating, but still being able to walk :?

Originally Posted by Daigoro

And it says you need "another movement advantage" to move around, which means that you need Walk on Air to move vertically, but logically, as you've adequately proven, you don't need it as it seems it's subsumed into the Permeation advantage already.

It does not say you need those, it says you are limited to walking if you do not have them. "Walking" in this sense meaning the same as it does in Walk on Air.

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Then what's the point of the text saying "you are affected by gravity"? If you can use a simple application of the advantage to bypass that, the assertion seems needless.

Gravity affects the permeating character the same as it does an airwalker... it is possible to fall, for instance, although unlikely unless you move out of your permeable substance. Climbing the "virtual" stairs (or ladder rungs) will be just as fatiguing as the real thing, as opposed to the movement of an Insubstantial character, who can move in any direction with the ease of walking across a flat floor.

* Although the rules may not allow it, a case could be made for treating Walk on Air as equivalent to Permeation(Air). This would mean that Permeation(Everything) includes WoA. You could also infer from this that Walk on Liquid was a variation of Permeation(Liquid), and from that extrapolate Permeation(Water) and apply the rules from WoA to non-swimming movement in water.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Not another shrubbery

* Although the rules may not allow it, a case could be made for treating Walk on Air as equivalent to Permeation(Air). This would mean that Permeation(Everything) includes WoA. You could also infer from this that Walk on Liquid was a variation of Permeation(Liquid), and from that extrapolate Permeation(Water) and apply the rules from WoA to non-swimming movement in water.

Nope; POWERS says Permeation (Everything) lets you walk through any solid substance.

Walk on Liquid is different from both; the description limits it to the existing surface of a body of liquid.

You might be able to take Permeation (Air) or (Liquid) with Meld 2 since there's no question of support, and they are probably cheaper since air barriers and liquid barriers are fairly rare.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Asta Kask

Then what's the point of the text saying "you are affected by gravity"? If you can use a simple application of the advantage to bypass that, the assertion seems needless.

It means you walk as if under the influence of gravity, if you have encumbrance, any carried items still have their normal weight rather than being buoyant, if you misstep you can fall and hurt yourself.

[jeff_wilson]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

And it says you need "another movement advantage" to move around

Show me, please.

[PK]

Originally Posted by Daigoro

And it says you need "another movement advantage" to move around

No, it doesn't. It says, "if you lack Flight or another movement advantage, you must walk at your Basic Move". That's all it says -- and that text is mainly there to prevent someone from thinking that Permeation worked like Insubstantiality (which does include slow Flight).

So it might be helpful to think of Permeation as "Walk Through Substance", in comparison to Walk On Air.

[Atreyu_Hibiki]

...

And, five or six years later, I suddenly realize that the power my first character had was actually Permeation: Everything, and not a ridiculously modified version of Intangibility. Wow, I feel stupid. My GM and I had long talks about how to make Intangible work, and in the end used some wonky mechanics to make it act... exactly like Permeation. *sigh*