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Old 06-21-2021, 01:27 PM   #31
Tuk the Weekah
 
Join Date: Nov 2012
Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by SolemnGolem View Post
I'm looking through both the GURPS DF and the DFRPG books, and a fair number of creatures have MR at +4. This seems to mean that no matter how strong the caster's effective skill, the target will whiff the majority of spells cast on it.

Is there any way to bring down the MR of a target discussed in any of the books?

I'm happy to houserule my own arcane time-consuming workarounds, but just wanted to check with the hivemind first.

As an aside, D&D had a (perhaps somewhat counterintuitive) method where a magical spell could lower a target's MR.
Late to the party (I've been away from the fora a while, as my GM was online casting for ideas & I didn't want to pollute the waters), but I have a question: rather than utilizing one of the (clever and creative) methods outlined above, why not just have a version of Power Blow (DFA 33) where a successful Power Blow roll allows you to double (or triple) your Spell level *versus MR only*?

Last edited by Tuk the Weekah; 06-21-2021 at 01:28 PM. Reason: 'below' to 'above'
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Old 06-21-2021, 05:29 PM   #32
Plane
 
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

maybe custom-design a golem spell which has Affliciton: Negated Advantage (Magic Resistance) ?
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Old 06-21-2021, 07:24 PM   #33
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

I think something is being missed.

Lots of spells can affect magical resistant creatures. For magic resistance to matter the spell has to be cast directly on the magic resistant creature. Missile spells for example are not resisted. Neither are Area spells.

Don't be a one trick pony if you are a mage.
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Old 06-21-2021, 09:02 PM   #34
maximara
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by Rupert View Post
-4 to skill, along with any range penalties, and +4 to the resist roll. Even with no range penalty it only takes Will-12 to reduce the mage's odds to 50%.

That suggests that if MR-4 is fairly common in a DF game, skill-20 with their favourite offensive spells (if they're resisted) is a starting skill level, not a good level.
I always read Magic Resistance as having two separate adjustments:

"For instance, if you have Magic Resistance 3, wizards have -3 to cast spells on you and you get +3 to resist. In addition, you may roll against HT + Magic Resistance to resist the effects of magical elixirs"

So a wizard casting regular resisted spell - 20 would cast it as if skill 16 and one would resist it as if it was skill 16. Otherwise the underlined part would have said 'you get +3 to resist this adjusted skill' or 'you get +6 to resist'.

Reading it the other way makes MR far two cheap in a common magic world and gives anything with switchable MR a huge advantage.
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Old 06-22-2021, 05:07 AM   #35
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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I always read Magic Resistance as having two separate adjustments:

"For instance, if you have Magic Resistance 3, wizards have -3 to cast spells on you and you get +3 to resist. In addition, you may roll against HT + Magic Resistance to resist the effects of magical elixirs"

So a wizard casting regular resisted spell - 20 would cast it as if skill 16 and one would resist it as if it was skill 16. Otherwise the underlined part would have said 'you get +3 to resist this adjusted skill' or 'you get +6 to resist'.

Reading it the other way makes MR far two cheap in a common magic world and gives anything with switchable MR a huge advantage.
I would never have thought to read it the way you are reading it.

If you get a resistance roll you get +3 to the number you have to roll under to succeed. The wizard has -3 to skill level of spells cast on you.

It's just that all rolls are affected. The attack roll and the resist roll. A key point here is that not every spell cast on you is resistible. If it is resistible then you resist it even more. Whereas if it is not resistible normally, you at least reduce the chance of the caster some too.

This also means that missile spells, area spells, etc... are unaffected.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:04 AM   #36
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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I would never have thought to read it the way you are reading it.
As I said Magic Resistance is way too cheap in regards to resisted regular spell at 2/level if the adjustments are cumulative.

MR 3 reducing spell - 20 to 17 and if it is resisted they go from the 17 rather than the 20 just makes it way too cheap.

The Compendium I stated "This is a specialized form of Magic Resistance." with regards to Mana Damper

Mana Damper equates to MR 5 with an area effect in normal mana but a Mana Damper does not get +5 to resist the spell on top of the -5 to skills in normal mana. More over Classic priced Mana Damper at 5 for yourself +5 for a 1 yard area around you and +10 for each yard after that.

Also if you try to build Mana Damper from Magic Resistance at normal mana things don't line up.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:13 AM   #37
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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This is for a villain NPC (the BBEG of the dungeon) who is a very accomplished arcane spellcaster, so part of the question of populating the dungeon will also concern how such a spellcasting lich could have gotten the magic-resistant inhabitants under control in the first place.
The lich could have simply gotten lucky (it's not like you need to actually roll for him to have control over the inhabitants), or cast the spells multiple times until the target finally failed. Another option is to give the lich some sort of artifact that, when used as a focus for spells, negates some (or all) of the target's Magic Resistance. If you don't want the characters to have to deal with such (if they have MR of their own), perhaps it was lost/broken/stolen sometime between the lich setting up the dungeon and now. If you don't want the characters to gain such an artifact from defeating the lich, either have it no longer be in the lich's possession (as above) or have the lich corrupt it in some way, such as using it as a phylactery (bonus points if the players end up tempted to use it anyway - yes, it's extremely useful against foes with MR, but it also means the lich will either keep coming back or attempting to possess the wielder, depending on how you have phylacteries working). Yet another option would be to allow for True Names to bypass MR, and the lich purposefully hunted down the True Names of the high-MR monsters before magically enslaving them.
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Old 06-22-2021, 08:54 AM   #38
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by Varyon View Post
The lich could have simply gotten lucky (it's not like you need to actually roll for him to have control over the inhabitants), or cast the spells multiple times until the target finally failed. Another option is to give the lich some sort of artifact that, when used as a focus for spells, negates some (or all) of the target's Magic Resistance. If you don't want the characters to have to deal with such (if they have MR of their own), perhaps it was lost/broken/stolen sometime between the lich setting up the dungeon and now. If you don't want the characters to gain such an artifact from defeating the lich, either have it no longer be in the lich's possession (as above) or have the lich corrupt it in some way, such as using it as a phylactery (bonus points if the players end up tempted to use it anyway - yes, it's extremely useful against foes with MR, but it also means the lich will either keep coming back or attempting to possess the wielder, depending on how you have phylacteries working). Yet another option would be to allow for True Names to bypass MR, and the lich purposefully hunted down the True Names of the high-MR monsters before magically enslaving them.
How I'd do it: The lich designed the dungeon - or at least parts of it - to dramatically reduce MR. They'd lure whatever critter they wanted to control into the low-MR zone, hit 'em with control spells, and be done with it. The PCs can pick up on this tactic by clues around the dungeon, and of course they can't take it with them. (Though they might learn the technique.)

I quite like the True Names option; that's a classic way to do it and very flavorful.
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Old 06-22-2021, 10:55 AM   #39
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
As I said Magic Resistance is way too cheap in regards to resisted regular spell at 2/level if the adjustments are cumulative.

MR 3 reducing spell - 20 to 17 and if it is resisted they go from the 17 rather than the 20 just makes it way too cheap.
B241 describes this clearly: for a resisted spell: resisted spells are a quick contest, MR both reduces the caster's skill and increases the defender's stat. Thus, 20 vs 12, with MR 3, becomes 17 vs 15.
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Old 06-22-2021, 11:07 AM   #40
Emerikol
 
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Default Re: Any way to reduce a target's Magic Resistance?

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Originally Posted by maximara View Post
As I said Magic Resistance is way too cheap in regards to resisted regular spell at 2/level if the adjustments are cumulative.

MR 3 reducing spell - 20 to 17 and if it is resisted they go from the 17 rather than the 20 just makes it way too cheap.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony View Post
B241 describes this clearly: for a resisted spell: resisted spells are a quick contest, MR both reduces the caster's skill and increases the defender's stat. Thus, 20 vs 12, with MR 3, becomes 17 vs 15.
What Anthony says is what I was thinking. It's two different rolls. On a roll where resist matters it increases your stat for that roll. It also decreases the attackers skill by that amount.

My guess is the cost is offset by the subject being resistant to positive helpful magic as well as harmful magic. I probably wouldn't allow the 150% upgrade that lets you be magic resistant and also have magery and cast spells for PCs. I might allow it for demons.
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