High Attributes

[Vernon King Avaritt III]

I read this in GURPS Supers and I am very confused. Are you supposed to limit normal's to max 20? Can supernormal's have stats as high as 25 to 30? What is the maximum stat for strength? Please let me know your ideas on this. Inquiring minds want to know.

HIGH ATTRIBUTES
Heroes without actual superpowers (often called “super normals”), such as Doc Savage or Batman, often have high attributes; sometimes all their attributes are high. A single score of 20 puts someone into the street-level power range, while boosting all four to 20 puts him into the classic comicbook range. GMs may want to set the ceiling on attributes at 25 or 30 instead of 20 for super normals, especially for those who only take a single attribute at this level.


From GURPS Supers page 23 top left.

[Phantasm]

The Basic Set and previous publications (most notably 3e's Compendium I) set "human maximum" at 20 in all four main stats. That cap has been there since 1e in '86, as far as I know. What Supers is saying is that in comics some characters who are otherwise normal humans can be said to have scores that exceed 20, which is otherwise a game no-no, and that the GM is well within his rights to say that "super-normals", or characters who are human with skills and stats exceptional enough to help them take down low-powered super-adversaries, can buy up their stats beyond 20.

Consider the movie versions of Black Widow and Hawkeye. She quite possibly has a DX score up around 20-25, while he not only has a Bow skill up around 30 but a DX score of 20+ and a Per (or at least Vision) score of 25 (though quite possibly with Bad Sight (Farsighted)), all raised through training rather than super-soldier experimentation.

I've also seen one Batman build that was 20s across the board in stats, and one that had 25s in DX and HT with 20s in ST and IQ. Why that high? "He's Batman."

[mr beer]

Yeah, tbrock said it perfectly.

You don't have to limit norms to 20 if you don't want. You can have a high fantasy campaign and let the heroes become demigods if you like, there's no reason Sir Strong, Breaker Of Mountains, can't have ST:30 if that's what works for you.

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by mr beer

You don't have to limit norms to 20 if you don't want. You can have a high fantasy campaign and let the heroes become demigods if you like, there's no reason Sir Strong, Breaker Of Mountains, can't have ST:30 if that's what works for you.

Yeah, Conan is one of those fantasy characters who I wouldn't hesitate to give ST and HT up over 20, possibly up around 25 in his prime, given what he goes through and foes he fights.

ST has always been one of the more variable cap stats as it is. An ST 20 is "as strong as a bear", which often translates into the smaller American Black Bear. You'll notice in my Marvel Reboot project I have Captain America and Black Panther at ST 23, which enables them to routinely bench-press over 800 pounds (BL * 8), which in that project I have set at "human maximum for ST". Movie!Cap is even stronger, easily ST 25 (routinely bench-press half a ton) if not ST 30 (lift 1 ton with a successful Lifting roll).

Also, while the stat cap in 3e was a hard and firm cap, in 4e the stat cap is listed as a suggestion. The Cult of Stat Normalization folks will insist that the cap should be 15 or even 14 across the board, even for ST, regardless. In my opinion, it all depends on the genre, players, and setting, as well as point value. A 150 point character isn't likely to get stats above 14; while a 400 point character may have two stats above 15, quite possibly hitting 20 in one stat. A 1000-2000 point Supers game will have at least one character with a stat of 20 or more; movie!Tony Stark easily has an IQ of 20+, which was highlighted nicely not only in the first movie when he built his first suit ("in a cave! with a box of scraps!") but in Iron Man 3 when he had to meet the threat without a functioning suit and still manages to whip up a bunch of gadgets after a spending spree at Lowe's.

[Bruno]

Depending on how you look at the Lifting skill, Extra Effort for lifts, and "record setting lifts", it's arguable that (a very few) living humans today have a lifting ST that hits 20 or possibly even a level or two higher - but that's combined regular ST and levels of the Lifting ST advantage. And probably the result of TL 8 drug treatments, along with TL 8 nutrition and TL 8 training.

There are genres where maximum ability caps are not really necessary. There are genres where maximum ability caps are not only necessary, but the GM may want to impose harsher ones to emphasize thematic elements ("You're all middle school characters. No ST above 11, and 11 is for that one really big kid who hit puberty early and exercises.")

[Phantasm]

Originally Posted by Bruno

"You're all middle school characters. No ST above 11, and 11 is for that one really big kid who hit puberty early and exercises."

"Hi, Buford." :)

[LemmingLord]

The überness of attributes makes them "unrealistic" at relatively low levels. Cinematic genres, including most of the super variety, are not realistic, though. As archetypes are the usual hero in comic books, it is often appropriate to give model a character from that hyper reality an exaggerated "good at everything" high gurps attribute.

The advantage is pretty clear: high stats means less work is required in figuring out all the nuances in the character's abilities. She's good at "stuff" or good at "athletic stuff" or "thinking stuff."

TWERPS takes this a step farther by having just one stat.

For my tastes, I prefer supers to be a little more specialized and so would encourage stats 15 or less with bang skills in the area(s) of his expertise. Hawkeye might have a dx 14, several extra levels of basic move and speed, and bow! 25-30, with power advantages relating to his special arrows.

[Vernon King Avaritt III]

Lemminglord you are quite right of course. I know someone who runs a 250 point super game and his players have a great time. You can run supers with no stat above 15 and 450 points just like in the Supers book. Or you can have stats higher just like in the supers book. Either is ok. I was surprised to find out anyone would say that high stats are ok. I actually was wondering if that paragraph was a glitch in the Supers book. I am pleased to find out it is not

[Desthro]

Originally Posted by LemmingLord

TWERPS takes this a step farther by having just one stat.

Haha TWERPS... fun times.

[RyanW]

Originally Posted by Vernon King Avaritt III

I actually was wondering if that paragraph was a glitch in the Supers book.

Read that as: "GURPS Basic Set suggests a limit of 20 on attributes for ordinary humans, but be aware that comic books have a different standard for ordinary human. Super archers, super detectives, and super soldiers are still super, even if on paper they don't have powers."

However, in at least 90% of cases, I think you can make a more interesting character by giving them good stats and super skills or low grade powers that are described as extreme training (Telescopic Vision for those super archers/marksmen). A character that can do a few related things extremely well is better in an ensemble than one that can do anything pretty well.