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Old 01-26-2022, 03:32 PM   #1
Jinumon
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Default Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

Hey all,

First off, if you're playing characters named Sturgill Swain, Colton Riviera, Jeremiah Adams, Father Thomas, or Jacqueline Hearts, stop reading.

I had a quick question regarding breaking and entering and how one might assist or oppose such an action. I'm aware of the rules for Breaking and Entering on p. 122 of GURPS Low-Tech, and intend on using them. My question is two-fold:

1) If someone were bracing the door from the other side with their body, how might that effect the effective HP and DR of the door (for standard Forced Entry) or the Bolt/Latch/Bar/Wedge (for Breaking and Entering)?

The only thoughts I have on this one so far are for a complementary ST roll, which seems a little insignificant (or nonsensical, in the case of failing and providing a penalty), or to use the rules on p. B392 for Multiple Close Combat.

2) How might people on the other side of the door (the ones trying to break in) work together to make themselves more effective?

Here a complementary ST or appropriate skill roll seems to make more sense, failing or critically failing means you can get in your allies' way and lessen the effectiveness of their blow. Still there might be better rules for this somewhere I am simply unaware of.

Thoughts?

Thanks, ya'll. GURPS community still #1!

Jinumon
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Old 01-26-2022, 04:14 PM   #2
LSmith42
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

You foolish warning has no power here Jinumon! I didn't read it tho.
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Old 01-27-2022, 08:40 AM   #3
RyanW
 
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Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

My first thought is that bracing would provide a sort of cover DR that applies to the latch/hinges but not to the door. You can keep the door from being torn from the frame, but there isn't much you can do to keep it from being reduced to splinters given enough damage.
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Old 01-27-2022, 01:04 PM   #4
Jinumon
 
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Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

Quote:
Originally Posted by RyanW View Post
My first thought is that bracing would provide a sort of cover DR that applies to the latch/hinges but not to the door. You can keep the door from being torn from the frame, but there isn't much you can do to keep it from being reduced to splinters given enough damage.
Fair points. Do you think that the cover DR should be divided at all because it's a person on the other side of the impact? By 2? By 5?

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Old 01-27-2022, 02:41 PM   #5
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

(1) For attacking the door, holding it from the other side has no effect. Just make a hole in the door. In this case, the door is providing cover DR for the holder, should there be any penetrating damage. For forcing the door (not destroying it, but instead attacking the hardware like locks or hinges), I'd have the ST of the person holding the door oppose that of the forcers.

Normally there's a ST(forcer) vs HP Contest, plus or minus modifiers for tools, the hardware, etc. The simplest thing to do is just subtract the holder's ST from the ST of the forcers. To make it a bit more of an dynamic contest, you might instead roll ST for the holder, and subtract that MoS (if any) from the roll by the attackers, along with the hardware's DR. (The idea being that if you don't overcome the holder's ST, then you're not putting any stress on the hardware.)

Action 2, Exploits, has more about forcing doors, and of course with tech higher than Low Tech. (I think it's pretty handy to have even in pseudo-medieval fantasy games.) But it doesn't seem to cover this particular case, and is otherwise similar to LT's "Breaking and Entering" box.

(2) I'd call for a Forced Entry roll to properly synchronize their joint slams into the door. (We have a skill for breaking and entering, so might as well give it its due.) The forcers might just accept a series of independent attacks, each opposed by the holder's ST. I'd also accept creative application of other skills, should the forcers happen to have any good ideas. Say, Freight Handling if they're getting in with pry bars, Group Performance (Choreography / Fight Choreography) or Tactics as an alternative to synchronizing those slams, Teamster to hook up the party mule and convince it to pull the door off the hinges (use the mule's ST as the forcer).
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Old 01-27-2022, 05:24 PM   #6
Pursuivant
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinumon View Post
H1) If someone were bracing the door from the other side with their body, how might that effect the effective HP and DR of the door (for standard Forced Entry) or the Bolt/Latch/Bar/Wedge (for Breaking and Entering)?
No effect at all. Doing violence to the door isn't going to affect anyone on the other side until it's breached.

The exception would be if the person holding the door from the other side is somehow able to protect the door's hinges, etc. from being forced out of line or broken, then Anaraxes' suggestion makes sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jinumon View Post
2) How might people on the other side of the door (the ones trying to break in) work together to make themselves more effective?
Treat it as a Quick Contest or Contest of ST.

I'd treat it as a QC of the main door forcer's ST vs. the main door barrer's ST, with some sort of penalty to the door forcer's ST based on the door's mass. Other people helping to force or bar the door contribute some fraction of their ST, perhaps 1/5. Maybe allow Forced Entry to be a Complementary Skill to the door forcer's roll to reflect tricks to get better leverage.

If cumulative ST scores boost both sides' effective ST above 18, subtract an arbitrary number from both sides' scores to bring effective ST into the 3-18 range, ideally 8-14.
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Old 02-01-2022, 01:26 AM   #7
Plane
 
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Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anaraxes View Post
For forcing the door (not destroying it, but instead attacking the hardware like locks or hinges), I'd have the ST of the person holding the door oppose that of the forcers.
The final paragraph of LT122's "breaking and entering" says you do a quick contest of the forcer's ST vs the HP assigned to "Bars, Bolts, Latches, and Locks" LT120.

Nothing about hinges: I think the only time you would bash a door on it's hinge-side instead of it's knob-side would be if you thought the lock was stronger than the hinge (in which case we lack stats for it)

You add Lifting ST (not Striking ST) despite this being described as "well-placed shoulder or boot", not really sure why.

The thing about these HP amounts is I'm thinking maybe it's more along the lines of "this is the HP affixing it to the door and wall" not necessarily "the total HP it has". When it "breaks" it's more like it's transitioning into an unattached form where it still exists as an unattached lock that might be able to be refastened to a new door with some new screws.

Anyway I'm thinking maybe you just add the ST+Lifting ST of whoever is bracing the door on the otherside to the HP of the lock when rolling the Quick Contest. Seems easiest.

For low-ST guys who use HP as mass "I just lean against the door" and adding your max HP to the lock's HP might also be an option (like how it can resist knockback against strikes) but then no adding lifting ST or arm ST or whatev.

I could also see rare situations where Striking ST could counter this (hit the door before it puts pressure on the lock) but this should be hard to time properly, plus you'd need to be constantly hitting the door (possibly hurting yourself) unless you were doing 'Shove' attacks (which AFAIK aren't subject to 'hurting yourself' rules)

If you can use striking ST to defend though you should def get to use it when targeting Bolt/Latch/Bar/Wedge , and this should happen more rapidly than when someone uses Lifting ST to grind a door open, making it harder to time a Striking ST counter to (Lifting ST counters should be fine since you pre-brace it)

As for how non-Lifting strikes (damaging or shoves) ought to work, I was thinking something like "roll basic damage, then roll against that as your ST in the quick contest".

Generally the basic damage you roll in a strike won't be as high as the striking ST which generated it... if you're thrust 1d-2 (ST 10) doing a 2H shove (B372) you'll get at best a 4, or a 6 if you use AOA:strong and an 8 if you add another +2 from Springing Attack (MA87)

since doors are inanimate you shouldn't be rolling to hit them in the first place (meaning no x2 or x3 from critical hits to ampify this) instead you get the damage bonus from Forced Entry (B196) of +2 (per die) if at DX+2

Given that I am proposing subbing Basic Damage for ST in the Quick Contest, you should not add the FE bonus a 2nd time though, as that would be double-dipping.

I do wonder if "don't bother to roll" is okay for Springing Attack though since that's a -2 penalty. I think there ought to be rolls to attack inanimate objects, just a lot more situational bonuses, such as the doubling of the Evaluate bonus which happens to "drop your guard" foes (B557) : a door's guard is ALWAYS dropped.

Relying on Evaluate (instead of automatic hits) is something I like a lot more. Applying "Aim as Attack" rules, an 'inanimate' thing has no penalties on B550's Speed/Rang table which means it should be much easier to succeed in an Aim (or an Evaluate) to build up bonuses for the next attack.

Plus there's also the old "tactics rerolls" gem in MA: it's easy to win a Quick Contest of Tactics by a huge MOV against an IQ0 door: lots of rerolls you can use in this "fight" to make sure you don't miss: but missing should still be a fringe option.

IE occasionally you try to punch a door and youre "best of 3" is a fail because you failed 3 times.

To make such situations even rarer, your GM might allow you to use multiple rerolls on a single attack: so using 2 rerolls would change it to "best of 5", 3 to "best of 7" and so on.

To reset your rerolls requires backing off to re-assess and "start a new battle" with a door. B366 has a single concentrate roll for "making a Leadership roll to give orders" but I think to formulate an entire set of tactics for a battle should be some multiple of 10 seconds to make for easy -1 to roll per 10% reduction math.
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Old 02-01-2022, 01:12 PM   #8
khorboth
 
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Default Re: Bracing/Breaching a Held Door

I don't have books on me, but I did something similar once.

Two characters pushing & shoving on a door trying to get it open/closed. I went with a *regular* contest of ST. I think something similar would work well for you. Unless there's something stopping the guys from battering down the door, they'll get in eventually. Bracing will slow it down considerably. And every roll held some tension.
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