TL4 Poker Chips

[Finalsora811]

I'm attempting to make a gambler and I was wondering 2 things.

1. Would they have had Poker Chips back then? If so, would they have been the same as ours?

2. Would they have had Casinos back then?

[sir_pudding]

In the historical European Renaissance? Neither existed, as far I know. I've got some books on gaming in that period. Poker itself didn't exist, but an earlier version (which is quite fun) called Primero did.

What's really interesting (to me, anyway) are many period dice games, which lack a modern understanding of classical probability and therefore are often "rigged" unintentionally.

I have no idea if single purpose casinos (as opposed to gaming halls in other establishments) or gambling tokens existed in China or elsewhere, though.

[gruundehn]

Gambling chips did not exist until the early or mid 19th century but casinos did exist back then as a type of hotel. The gambling room(s) were an attraction of the hotel and perhaps what made them different from a hotel. Of course I am, as often the cse, going off of old memories here. But I remember reading about the Renaissance in Italy and this was a point made. Casinos were an invention in Italy as a development of the hotel during that time frame.

[robkelk]

Considering that the game of poker didn't come into existence until the mid-18th century (at least that's what Wikipedia says), I'd be surprised if poker chips existed before then. It's more likely people would be using actual coins instead of tokens that represent coins.

However, at least one casino existed in TL4: Il Ridotto. (Again, according to Wikipedia)

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by robkelk

I'd be surprised if poker chips existed before then. It's more likely people would be using actual coins instead of tokens that represent coins.

It's not as if literal penny-ante poker games have not been played in living memory.

Also, check out the histiory of cards. The conventional history si that hand-painted Tarot cards existed in the TL4 period but were used for fortunetelling instead of gaming.

A TL4 European-style gambler probably works mostly with dice games rather than cards. They might be made dice rather than simple sheep's bones such as Roman soldiers used.

[Polydamas]

You might want to google Donald McBane, a Scottish infantryman who ran brothels and gambling sites on the side around the year 1700. His memoirs have a lot of allusions to how gambling in an army camp worked.

The fun thing is that until about 1700, there was no mathematics of probability and statistics. The John Law of the Missippi Bubble made some money by applying rudimentary probability theory to some popular games.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The fun thing is that until about 1700, there was no mathematics of probability and statistics.

In fact, years and years ago, I edited a journal article that translated one of the early studies of odds in dice games. They figured like this:

1, 1 gives 2: that's 1
1, 2 gives 3: that's 1
1, 3 or 2, 2 gives 4: that's 2
1, 4 or 2, 3 gives 5: that's 2
1, 5 or 2, 4 or 3, 3 gives 6: that's 3
1, 6 or 2, 5 or 3, 4 gives 7: that's 3
and so on, for 21 outcomes; so they had 1/21 chance of a 2, 1/21 chance of a 3, 2/21 chance of a 4, and so on. I think most of us can figure out what the true odds should be, but it wasn't obvious back then.

The scary thing is that I think this was an early essay by Blaise Pascal. . . .

Bill Stoddard

[sir_pudding]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

Also, check out the histiory of cards. The conventional history si that hand-painted Tarot cards existed in the TL4 period but were used for fortunetelling instead of gaming.

There were plenty of card games in the Renaissance through Baroque, including as I said earlier, the Poker ancestor: Primero.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by sir_pudding

There were plenty of card games in the Renaissance through Baroque, including as I said earlier, the Poker ancestor: Primero.

After the invention of the printing press maybe. Before that when all decks are hand-painted I doubt that decks are common at all. Very dificult to play card games when you don't have a deck.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

After the invention of the printing press maybe. Before that when all decks are hand-painted I doubt that decks are common at all. Very dificult to play card games when you don't have a deck.

The printing press is in fact one of the characteristic technologies of the Renaissance—and, more to the point, of the Reformation, which happened more or less at the same time. Francis Bacon cites gunnery, navigation, and printing as the three great triumphs of European technology. Of course now we know that the Chinese came up with all three first. . . .

Bill Stoddard