4e Cure Disease badly worded/overpowered

[Dalin]

Even at TLs where casters don't have a clue about how diseases actually function*, they may have access to divination spells, divine guidance, and other magical methods of improving their guesswork.

* Presuming a world where modern medical understandings are accurate. I'm personally inclined toward fantasy worlds where diabetes is caused by bad spirits... but maybe they inhabit the pancreas?

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

I suppose it'd depend on the ubiquity of healing in the campaign. I could see, in a high magic environment, teams just hitting one organ after the next until they had enough of a database to work with. Alright, TL 4 might not know WHY the pancreas is causing trouble, but ...

They'll have access to combat damage cases that w0uld never have survived without magic.

"The patient had his pancreas destroyed by a spear thrust in the last Orc War. In the 30 days it took for that organ to Regenerate he not only had trouble digesting his food but also displayed symptoms of diabetes. Is it possible for organs to have two separate functions?"

In "diseases" that start out as autoimmune disorders like diabetes type 1 you could Regenerate the Islets of Langerhans just to see them destroyed again.

Diabetes type 2 might be even tougher. My own best speculation about me and portal fantasy centers around Restoration cast on the entire muscular system (and a lot of Youth spells too). Of course this is after casting Restoration on almost every joint in my body.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

I suppose it'd depend on the ubiquity of healing in the campaign. I could see, in a high magic environment, teams just hitting one organ after the next until they had enough of a database to work with. Alright, TL 4 might not know WHY the pancreas is causing trouble, but ...

At some point...someone will try it. Casting Cost 15 or 20 points is low enough that it would happen. It would take either someone who has the spells or someone with silly money but even the random organ method would eventually work.

Cast. Wait a month for results. If necessary Cast again. Repeat as necessary.

The symptoms are quite noticeable but I would figure you would get 18 to 24 attempts minimum (i.e. 1 1/2 to 2 years) before you would likely lose the patient.

People with money do silly things...

The question is whether it got written down/survived in oral tradition.

* cough cough Alchemical Aperitifs cough cough*

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by Fred Brackin

In "diseases" that start out as autoimmune disorders like diabetes type 1 you could Regenerate the Islets of Langerhans just to see them destroyed again.

Possible but not guaranteed. Last I knew they had still not pinned down what the trigger or triggers for the attack were. Nevermind if such a triggered autoimmune response persists and if so how long without 'booster shots'.

It might work it might not. IIRC they were looking at something like a 'Restoration/Regeneration' effect on the Isles via stem cells but TBH I stopped paying close attention to the subject about 10ish years ago.

Twould be another GM call what would happen after a successful casting of Restore/Regen.

My call would be Problem solved. After all most Transplants do not reject and your OWN pancreas working again is a lot closer match than any transplant.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Witchking

At some point...someone will try it. Casting Cost 15 or 20 points is low enough that it would happen. It would take either someone who has the spells or someone with silly money but even the random organ method would eventually work ... The question is whether it got written down/survived in oral tradition.

I'm not thinking even so much whether one rich person would try it. I'm thinking a major medical/clerical establishment with sound record-keeping, interest in research, a critical mass of healing wizards/clerics, diviners to help them out, and the patience to accumulate data over a decade or two. With acolytes around to lend energy or otherwise allow ceremonial castings, such an establishment could cast numerous Restorations a day, and keep on doing so until they have the issue licked. Cue the De materia medica of the fantasy campaign.

Gah, I'm not even thinking. Divination can, explicitly, provide an answer to a yes/no question. "Is the liver the principal organ affecting diabetes?" No? Alright. "Is the spleen the principal organ affecting diabetes?" No? Alright ...

That motivated healing establishment might well be able to crack the code behind just about any disease within just a few years. Again, the theory behind many diseases may be beyond TL2-4 comprehension, but that'd come far behind the need -- and ability -- to fix what's wrong.

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Gah, I'm not even thinking. Divination can, explicitly, provide an answer to a yes/no question. "Is the liver the principal organ affecting diabetes?" No? Alright. "Is the spleen the principal organ affecting diabetes?" No? Alright ...

Divinations do strange things to the process of researching anything. You can drop back further ("Is there a way to cast any spell I know that will cure diabetes?", "How about any spell in The Green Book of Healing?"). And you can get more than Yes/No out of most divinations, a single word is enough to ask about the target organ directly. If you can identify people you could ask whose theory is the most correct.

[Witchking]

Originally Posted by RGTraynor

Gah, I'm not even thinking.

Sadly cancer was different...

...but one barefoot idjit with sufficient motivation was all it took.

[RGTraynor]

Originally Posted by Witchking

Sadly cancer was different...

...but one barefoot idjit with sufficient motivation was all it took.

Yep. And I'm sure there'd be a number of hits and misses, a number of false positives, critically failed spells going into the mix.

Not that the history of medicine hasn't had a whole lot of botched results and flawed theories itself.

[corwyn]

Originally Posted by ravenfish

On the other hand, a disease or two that is especially scary because it is not affected by Cure Disease could make a nice campaign detail.

I ran a game in Ravenloft where I made Lycantropy immune to Cure Disease/Curse and ran a side quest to cure it.

[bocephus]

Originally Posted by maximara

I was looking through 4e Cure Disease and realized just how badly worded/overpowered it is.

"Eliminates one type of disease ''or'' infection from the body of the subject."

The classic version was saner: "Eliminates all disease, plague, or infection microorganisms of one chosen type from the body of the subject. (...) If no organism is responsible, the spell has no effect!"

Made a blunder and can only correct it in post:
Should read:

The way Cure Disease is set up in 4e as written it would seem to be a great way to cure scurvy or beriberi neither of which is the result of a microbe or virus.

See I would rule that Cure disease has no effect on either Scurvy or Beriberi.
If I (as GM) was being as specific as choosing an actual condition that the PCs would be expected to deal with as a simulation, this would require the introduction of the missing vitamin/mineral.

You can't "remove the cause" of the condition, the problem is arguably that the removal has already happened and only the introduction of the appropriate material would fix it.

I see "Cure Disease" as a removal of whats causing the condition, there is nothing in the spell which indicates that it has any kind of additive effect.