Ideas:'Revolutionary' late 2030s Handgun for Black Ops/Horror/lite Sci-Fi setting

[Rolando]

If he is going to use them for Black Ops I would suggest to focus less on plausibility of technology and focus more into the action and aesthetic of the game.

Black Ops use super intelligent cientists/inventors with access to a sprinkle of alien tech and other shenanigans to pull some crazy stunts, in and out of the lab and workshops.

So just "upgrade" your favorite weapon with "extra powerful" shots that add +1 per die or add +1d or +2d of damage, while also improving the armor piercing to (2) or (3). Make it loud and flashy for the Combat Ops, or radar absorbent, not detectable in metal detectors for the Intelligence Op. It is important to invent some technical specks, things like " the shots use improved powder or it uses rifle ammo or whatever, but it is just flavor.

The characters will need all the help.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Racer

Okay asking for a younger UK player who has minimal knowledge of firearms..

Brits conquer half of the world:

Originally Posted by Racer

...I've chucked a couple of ideas his way , but as a Brit it's not really my field of expertise...

Lol

Sorry, I just found this "as a Brit" remark to be super funny haha

Originally Posted by jacobmuller

...I love this forum.

Right there with you brother.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

The problems are 1) that handguns are already mainly limited by the user (in particular how well a human can aim them and keep them on target, what force a human hand can control, and how much bulk and weight is convenient to carry- although tolerance for noise is also an issue). And 2) that piercing body armour and inflicting lots of damage to flesh tend to be incompatible goals. A character with supernatural strength might be able to control a special cartridge more powerful than today's mass-produced handgun cartridges.

There may well now be, and could be in the 2030s, handgun cartridges which make similar design choices to the personal defense weapon cartridges in GURPS High-Tech (in GURPS terms, maximizing penetration at the expense of wounding).

That seems a hard wall in engineering to transpose. How about using magnetic accelerators or self propelled bullets?

As for "piercing vs wounding", the only solution I see is to either make the bullets explosive or to make them turn into shrapnel after contact

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

How about using magnetic accelerators or self propelled bullets?

<shrug> 30% to 40% of the recoil energy goes to the propellant gasses. Eliminate those and you can use the savings for more projectile power, either in the form of velocity or size.

Realistically only guided micro-missiles would be at all accurate and they never e as cheap as they are in UT.

But yes, just go to UT and you'll find Armor Piercing Explosive projectiles.

[FrackingBiscuit]

Originally Posted by Racer

I do not which edition of Hi Tech he has , as he mentioned none of those weapons posted by jacobmuller .

Desert Eagle and Barret are both in High-Tech 3e. MP7 is only in 4e. In general 4e will have all of the same guns as 3e plus some guns that hit the market between the two editions, but there are some guns in 3e that didn't make it to 4e for one reason or another.

When searching for a powerful gun, it might be easier to think in terms of the round you're firing rather than the gun itself. Most guns firing the same round will perform basically the same. Also, handguns in general aren't going to penetrate armor well. The silver lining of all this is that you can safely ignore most handguns in your search - you're really looking for something exceptional, like the Desert Eagle in .50AE firing APDU rounds.

Having said that, it's important to know just what kind of body armor this player wants their handcannon to punch through. If they're fighting soldiers with full military body armor with DR 35, the handgun is usually a non-starter. But if werewolves and Predators are things they need to worry about, I'd imagine they aren't fighting uniformed soldiers very often. Looking at High-Tech 4e's TL8 body armor, the fragmentation vest and concealable vests are all LC3, meaning they're pretty easy for people to get their hands on. (The anti-stab vest is LC4, but as its name implies it doesn't work against piercing damage.) The frag vest is DR 5 without trauma plates (which are LC 2 and therefore harder to get), the early concealable vest is DR 8, and the concealable vest is DR 12.

To put those numbers in perspective: two common pistol calibers you'll see are 9mm and .45. The 9mm often does 2d+2 pi, while the .45 does 2d pi+. The 9mm will penetrate armor better with higher basic damage, but the .45's large piercing damage has a x1.5 wounding modifier, so it can often do more damage. The average damage rolled for each is 9 damage for the 9mm and 7 damage for the .45. On average, both will go through the frag vest without trauma plates, while the 9mm will do a single point of damage through the early concealable vest. Both are usually stopped by the concealable vest, and in fact the .45's max damage of 12 means it will never get through. The 9mm, when it does get through, will only do a point or two of damage. A lot of pistol calibers will do damage in the same ballpark as the 9mm and .45, meaning that most handguns will be stopped by concealable vests, which can be worn under clothes and cost only $1,000.

Meanwhile, the Desert Eagle in .50AE will do 4d pi+ damage. Average damage is 14, meaning it'll punch right through that concealed vest, and like the .45 it does large piercing damage, so anything that gets through DR is multiplied by 1.5. So it'll get the job done. But really, the Deagle is a bit played out - it's heavy, bulky, it kicks like a horse, and it's got a small magazine size. There's a reason only Cold War-era action movie villains use it. And even when real people do use it, it's usually not chambered in .50AE. So what else do we have?

The Colt Python revolver is a .357 magnum. Damage is 3d pi, average damage 10.5. It's also easier to control and hide than the Deagle. Pretty good, but could be better. The S&W Model 29 is a revolver chambered in .44 Magnum - 3d+2 pi+. Average damage 12.5, so it'll punch through the concealable vest, and slightly easier to control than the Deagle. Getting better.

How about that Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull? 5d-1 pi+ damage... about as much as an assault rifle, with better wounding. Average damage 16.5, with huge piercing damage. It hits like a freight train. It also weighs a pound less than the Deagle... though it does have more recoil.

And if you DO have to shoot through DR 35 body armor? You'll need armor piercing ammunition doing around 5d(2) damage, which gives an average penetration of 35, meaning a 50/50 chance of getting through. This is hard to do with a handgun, but not impossible. Of the three basic AP types (AP, APHC, and APDU), I think only APDU is really going to give you the raw damage output to get through armor. On a .50AE Desert Eagle, it turns 4d(2) pi+ into 5d-1(2) pi. Average 33 penetration... It'll work, but we can do better. The .454 Casull revolver will do something like 6d-1(2) pi, which will average two points of damage through DR 35. The damage may not sound like much, but actually punching through military body armor with a revolver is a feat in and of itself.

The problem, of course, is that APDU ammunition is LC1, meaning there's a good chance it's totally unavailable to the player. AP and APHC are both LC2, with APHC being more expensive. I'd imagine that this is going to be the real limiting factor.

So, to summarize: If they need a handgun that will get through common civilian body armors, they have a few options. Something in .357 will usually get the job done, but might struggle against the best armor. If they need a little more oomph, a .44 magnum will do the job reliably. A Desert Eagle in .50AE will do it better, but only slightly, and it's a big hunk of metal with a lot of downsides.

And if they absolutely, positively need to get through military body armor with a handgun, the best option is something ridiculous like .454 Casull firing APDU rounds. Desert Eagle firing .50AE APDU is the second best option, but will struggle. If LC1 APDU ammo isn't available, .454 Casull firing LC2 APHC ammo is as good as the Deagle. If restricted to LC3, the best one-handed weapon for getting through military body armor is either a knife to the throat, or a cell phone speed-dialing an IED.

[KarlKost]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

Desert Eagle and Barret are both in High-Tech 3e. MP7 is only in 4e. In general 4e will have all of the same guns as 3e plus some guns that hit the market between the two editions, but there are some guns in 3e that didn't make it to 4e for one reason or another.

When searching for a powerful gun, it might be easier to think in terms of the round you're firing rather than the gun itself. Most guns firing the same round will perform basically the same. Also, handguns in general aren't going to penetrate armor well. The silver lining of all this is that you can safely ignore most handguns in your search - you're really looking for something exceptional, like the Desert Eagle in .50AE firing APDU rounds.

Having said that, it's important to know just what kind of body armor this player wants their handcannon to punch through. If they're fighting soldiers with full military body armor with DR 35, the handgun is usually a non-starter. But if werewolves and Predators are things they need to worry about, I'd imagine they aren't fighting uniformed soldiers very often. Looking at High-Tech 4e's TL8 body armor, the fragmentation vest and concealable vests are all LC3, meaning they're pretty easy for people to get their hands on. (The anti-stab vest is LC4, but as its name implies it doesn't work against piercing damage.) The frag vest is DR 5 without trauma plates (which are LC 2 and therefore harder to get), the early concealable vest is DR 8, and the concealable vest is DR 12.

To put those numbers in perspective: two common pistol calibers you'll see are 9mm and .45. The 9mm often does 2d+2 pi, while the .45 does 2d pi+. The 9mm will penetrate armor better with higher basic damage, but the .45's large piercing damage has a x1.5 wounding modifier, so it can often do more damage. The average damage rolled for each is 9 damage for the 9mm and 7 damage for the .45. On average, both will go through the frag vest without trauma plates, while the 9mm will do a single point of damage through the early concealable vest. Both are usually stopped by the concealable vest, and in fact the .45's max damage of 12 means it will never get through. The 9mm, when it does get through, will only do a point or two of damage. A lot of pistol calibers will do damage in the same ballpark as the 9mm and .45, meaning that most handguns will be stopped by concealable vests, which can be worn under clothes and cost only $1,000.

Meanwhile, the Desert Eagle in .50AE will do 4d pi+ damage. Average damage is 14, meaning it'll punch right through that concealed vest, and like the .45 it does large piercing damage, so anything that gets through DR is multiplied by 1.5. So it'll get the job done. But really, the Deagle is a bit played out - it's heavy, bulky, it kicks like a horse, and it's got a small magazine size. There's a reason only Cold War-era action movie villains use it. And even when real people do use it, it's usually not chambered in .50AE. So what else do we have?

The Colt Python revolver is a .357 magnum. Damage is 3d pi, average damage 10.5. It's also easier to control and hide than the Deagle. Pretty good, but could be better. The S&W Model 29 is a revolver chambered in .44 Magnum - 3d+2 pi+. Average damage 12.5, so it'll punch through the concealable vest, and slightly easier to control than the Deagle. Getting better.

How about that Ruger Super Redhawk in .454 Casull? 5d-1 pi+ damage... about as much as an assault rifle, with better wounding. Average damage 16.5, with huge piercing damage. It hits like a freight train. It also weighs a pound less than the Deagle... though it does have more recoil.

And if you DO have to shoot through DR 35 body armor? You'll need armor piercing ammunition doing around 5d(2) damage, which gives an average penetration of 35, meaning a 50/50 chance of getting through. This is hard to do with a handgun, but not impossible. Of the three basic AP types (AP, APHC, and APDU), I think only APDU is really going to give you the raw damage output to get through armor. On a .50AE Desert Eagle, it turns 4d(2) pi+ into 5d-1(2) pi. Average 33 penetration... It'll work, but we can do better. The .454 Casull revolver will do something like 6d-1(2) pi, which will average two points of damage through DR 35. The damage may not sound like much, but actually punching through military body armor with a revolver is a feat in and of itself.

The problem, of course, is that APDU ammunition is LC1, meaning there's a good chance it's totally unavailable to the player. AP and APHC are both LC2, with APHC being more expensive. I'd imagine that this is going to be the real limiting factor.

So, to summarize: If they need a handgun that will get through common civilian body armors, they have a few options. Something in .357 will usually get the job done, but might struggle against the best armor. If they need a little more oomph, a .44 magnum will do the job reliably. A Desert Eagle in .50AE will do it better, but only slightly, and it's a big hunk of metal with a lot of downsides.

And if they absolutely, positively need to get through military body armor with a handgun, the best option is something ridiculous like .454 Casull firing APDU rounds. Desert Eagle firing .50AE APDU is the second best option, but will struggle. If LC1 APDU ammo isn't available, .454 Casull firing LC2 APHC ammo is as good as the Deagle. If restricted to LC3, the best one-handed weapon for getting through military body armor is either a knife to the throat, or a cell phone speed-dialing an IED.

I guess for Monster Hunters dealing with Werewolves and Predadors they'll need a full assault rifle, which would be... Problematic to have in the UK, or a TL9/superscience prototype

[Willy]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

I guess for Monster Hunters dealing with Werewolves and Predadors they'll need a full assault rifle, which would be... Problematic to have in the UK, or a TL9/superscience prototype

If you cansider using a rifle, most nations allow hunters some rifles who met the caliber and precision of a sniper rifle. A shotgun is a option for close combat albeit civillian shotguns have reduced ammo or just a side by side barrel.

Also a hunting license allows for the transport of this toys without much questions. Including ammo and guns, a back up handgun included.

So your "only" problem is to get for civillians illegal as hell ammo.

[jacobmuller]

Hmm, Gyroc rounds could be fun. If we imagine them using HEAT warheads, maybe 6d(5) Imp Inc, linked 1d-2 Cr Ex?

[FrackingBiscuit]

Originally Posted by KarlKost

I guess for Monster Hunters dealing with Werewolves and Predadors they'll need a full assault rifle, which would be... Problematic to have in the UK, or a TL9/superscience prototype

Well, if the characters are in the UK, handguns are totally out of the question anyway. To my understanding any cartridge-firing handgun is banned. Given that the player in question is looking for one, I'm assuming the characters themselves aren't in the UK (or have some way around its laws).

And as far as monster hunting goes, I know .357 and .44 magnum are often discussed for defense against moose and bears, so I figure they'd be standard fare for monster hunters. .454 Casull is also brought up alongside other real big cartridges, but I would imagine they're less popular. Still, I would assume guns regularly used to hunt/protect against wild life will be readily available to monster hunters.

If actually trapped in the UK, apparently it's possible to get pump-action/semi-auto shotguns and bolt-action rifles, but they seem to have limits on magazine capacity, like no more than 2+1 for a shotgun. So it's possible to get a big-bore longarm of some kind if you get all the dots to line up. But yeah, the UK doesn't exactly seem like a good place for professional monster hunters to be.

[Anaraxes]

Originally Posted by FrackingBiscuit

But yeah, the UK doesn't exactly seem like a good place for professional monster hunters to be.

The hunters can have whatever weapons they like. They'll just be illegal in some cases. That's merely "harder to get", not "impossible". Which is fine in a wainscot world, as the PCs don't generally want the police to know what they're doing in the first place. And anyway, it'd be a problematic legal argument as to whether laws about "assault" or "homicide" apply to supernatural creatures of varying degrees of humanoid-ity. Gives the PCs a reason to have some black-market Contacts and social skills to keep them supplied with their monster-hunting implements of choice.

"Black Ops" suggests the PCs are part of a military force. So, the setting could well stipulate that the PTB know all about the occult baddies, and the SAS has an extra-secret unit of PCs devoted to hunting them down. In this setting, it's perfectly legal for the PCs to have weapons as part of their job.