Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

[The_Ryujin]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

The problem is with FA shot gun is unless your firing shot, the recoil gets you. Even the Daewoo / AA12 is Rcl 3 (and I wouldn't go lower).

It's Rof is 5-6 anyway so you never going to get more then +1 for FA fire

so to do better than SA fire (Rof 3) you going to have to get 12 MoS with that extra +1, ultimately I think I rather fire RoF3 especially as capacity is always an issue with all shot guns.

So your basically getting +1 to hit with 4+ burst. So it depends on how much you want that +1, but there are several ways to get that +1 elsewhere.

Oh yeah, which is also the reason they don't sell well in the military world.

I was thinking more in it's ability to unload oddball "specific weakness" ammo at a relatively high volume at close range rather then it's damage dealing potential though after re-reading what I said I did do a poor job bringing that point across heh.

As for the recoil, yeah, that's pretty much what I thought.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

It hasn't but it has been mention in several threads here, the general consensus* seems to be it's a Daewoo USAS that can take 3" shells and might have ROF 5-6

*which includes people who's opinion I'd certainly trust

Most important would be, would it cycle with speciality ammo?

A shotgun is primarily useful because you can fire so many types of ammo; slugs, shot, breaching rounds and even rock salt, stakes or something even odder.

[safisher]

I can see the appeal. A really cut-down .50 BMG (8-10") with a suppressor can be done, I suppose. It won't really be all that quiet, but it probably acts like a muzzle break, in game terms. But in the end it's still very heavy and has a limited ammo capacity (unless you mod them to belt feed, too). It's just not functional in any realistic way compared to the other calibers mentioned. Maybe one guy in the fire team has one, but for the whole crew it's probably a waste. The other calibers mentioned are fine, too, I suppose, but miss out on some of the off-the-shelf flexibility of the Beowulf. If your unit of MHs is super secret and funded by some limitless dark funding stream, then playing around with the others might be okay, too. If I were going this route, though, I'd really look at a custom round and custom weapon. Maybe poisoned triplex APEX rounds, that sort of thing. Heck, an M-32 grenade launcher would be a good option against certain targets.

We picked the .50 Beowulf because it hits the right GURPS break point in L:MH, and is a beast (with a drum, good optic, and a good can). It can fold up, even be built as a pistol. And as a relatively cheap, COTS carbine at 6d+1+ (or more with extra-powerful rounds) and with a 34-round drum and full-auto in a small carbine size it is going to be an important MH benchmark, no doubt.

Also, as we point out in L:MH you can have an underbarrel attachment, which now days might be a 12-gauge six-shot revolver, like the SIX12.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by The_Ryujin

Oh yeah, which is also the reason they don't sell well in the military world.

I was thinking more in it's ability to unload oddball "specific weakness" ammo at a relatively high volume at close range rather then it's damage dealing potential though after re-reading what I said I did do a poor job bringing that point across heh.

As for the recoil, yeah, that's pretty much what I thought.

I take your point about speciality rounds, but ultimately the same issues apply, you're not likely to be hitting with more of them, and will expending them more quickly.

God help you if they are expensive!

Originally Posted by Icelander

Most important would be, would it cycle with speciality ammo?

A shotgun is primarily useful because you can fire so many types of ammo; slugs, shot, breaching rounds and even rock salt, stakes or something even odder.

True.

Given it's a gas blow back system, and evidently uses a lot of the gas to operate the cycle (which is why it touts it's recoil dampening as well) I'd say no.

There are other gas operated systems shotguns that have to cycle such rounds by pump action. (the Benalli M4, the Franchi SPAS 12 & 15)

However not all speciality rounds are low energy so it wouldn't be a problem for most anyway (it seems to be generally the less than lethal stuff that is effected, so likely not stuff MH's will be firing)




Anyway for stats purpose the redone AA-12 weighs less than the USAS at 10.5lb, it's the same length so I'd give the same bulk at -5 (although your almost certainly going to want the 20 or 32 round drum that will worsen bulk)

Evidently it comes in CQB version with 5" taken off the barrel bringing it down to 13", which I'd do with the rules in TS and as a shot gun it avoids some of the stat issues of this.

Rof is 5 (300rpm) on the wiki and elsewhere (see below)

And one can assume the round you are firing will also effect it (I'd guess 3" magnum round might count at extra powerful in terms of making it cycle a bit faster as per the extra powerful round rules so x1.1* so you could argue Rof 6)

Price is what ever it sells for I guess (although people on gun websites are interested in them, they don't actually seem to selling well in RL) it's pretty bespoke. maybe $1,500 - $2,000?

Here's what quite a recent and detailed write-up of it has to say about availability and sales:

"The first foreign sale was in 2010. It has been purchased in small numbers by the Saudi Royal Guard and an undisclosed user in southwest Asia. To date around 70 of the shotguns have been sold. They are handmade, not mass produced guns."

'Undisclosed user in SW Asia' has well funded PC team written all other it ;-) (or OK more likely it will be someone's security team in Bahrain or the UAE)




*although HT mentions this effect it doesn't actually quantify it, so I take the same effect on Damage, MinST and range (x1.1) and apply it. But I think you'd need an action that relies on blow back or gas to to operate it for the effect to work. i.e hand cranked, spring wound and electric motor run mechanism won't fire faster if you give them extra Powerful rounds.

[Tomsdad]

On the subject of speciality rounds for shotguns (and comparing again to those larger pi+ rifle rounds)

by my maths an APFSDS out of 3" 12G Magnum shell is 9d+2 (2) pi+

and if you're going all out and find the stuff and someone to make them for you a APFSDSDU is 11d-1 (2) pi+


Although APDS is available shotguns I'm not 100% sure you could make these rounds work in the real life and get the kind of bonuses they get in HT though. (x1.5 and x1.7 respectively). It's a munchkin load and no doubt

[fredtheobviouspseudonym]

the .458 Barnes specialty cartridge was a cut-down .458 Winchester. It was designed for short-barreled suppressed carbines & apparently saw some action in Vietnam in the late 1960's.

Oops -- predecessor to the .458 SOCOM.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by safisher

I can see the appeal. A really cut-down .50 BMG (8-10") with a suppressor can be done, I suppose. It won't really be all that quiet, but it probably acts like a muzzle break, in game terms. But in the end it's still very heavy and has a limited ammo capacity (unless you mod them to belt feed, too).

I think the .50 BMG would lose a lot of velocity in such a short barrel. I'd probably want a 20" barrel even for a CQB .50 BMG. If it's a bullpup, that would still be only Bulk -5 and that's a nice weapon for a team sharpshooter. Shots 10+1 is fine for a semi-automatic weapon, especially one that speaks with such authority.

Originally Posted by safisher

It's just not functional in any realistic way compared to the other calibers mentioned. Maybe one guy in the fire team has one, but for the whole crew it's probably a waste. The other calibers mentioned are fine, too, I suppose, but miss out on some of the off-the-shelf flexibility of the Beowulf.

The .50 Beowulf and the .458 SOCOM are pretty similar for this role. The .50 Beowulf is slightly more powerful, but the .458 SOCOM apparently has better performance with subsonic rounds. Almost any 30-rd AR-15 magazine will hold 10 of each and a CMMG 40-rd one will hold 14 .50 Beowulf or 15 .458 SOCOM. Both will do fine in a monster hunting carbine.

OTOH, the legal 16" barrel is kind of a waste, as with Bulk -5 you can get an AR-10 chambered for 45 Raptor, which gets you Shots 20+1 of a more powerful round than either the .50 Beowulf or the .458 SOCOM. So if you have to carry a legal semi-automatic rifle for monster hunting, I'd probably go with that.

Originally Posted by safisher

If your unit of MHs is super secret and funded by some limitless dark funding stream, then playing around with the others might be okay, too. If I were going this route, though, I'd really look at a custom round and custom weapon. Maybe poisoned triplex APEX rounds, that sort of thing. Heck, an M-32 grenade launcher would be a good option against certain targets.

It's just a thought experiment, really. I'm not planning any game where there is an official government funded Monster Hunting institute of any kind. I might run one where the PCs are rich or have a rich Patron, though, and don't mind breaking gun laws to go with all the law-breaking being a monster hunting vigilante entails.

Originally Posted by safisher

We picked the .50 Beowulf because it hits the right GURPS break point in L:MH, and is a beast (with a drum, good optic, and a good can). It can fold up, even be built as a pistol. And as a relatively cheap, COTS carbine at 6d+1+ (or more with extra-powerful rounds) and with a 34-round drum and full-auto in a small carbine size it is going to be an important MH benchmark, no doubt.

I'm heard that neither the .50 Beowulf and the .458 SOCOM works very well in drum magazines. As in, Malf. 16 might be highly optimistic, with Malf. 13-14 closer to the mark. But I agree with the rest.

Originally Posted by safisher

Also, as we point out in L:MH you can have an underbarrel attachment, which now days might be a 12-gauge six-shot revolver, like the SIX12.

Which is pretty cool.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

On the subject of speciality rounds for shotguns (and comparing again to those larger pi+ rifle rounds)

by my maths an APFSDS out of 3" 12G Magnum shell is 9d+2 (2) pi+

and if you're going all out and find the stuff and someone to make them for you a APFSDSDU is 11d-1 (2) pi+


Although APDS is available shotguns I'm not 100% sure you could make these rounds work in the real life and get the kind of bonuses they get in HT though. (x1.5 and x1.7 respectively). It's a munchkin load and no doubt

That does sound pretty awesome. I don't see any obvious reason why that wouldn't work, though obviously it would be a pretty pricey R&D job to actually build the things. Possible for a government-funded monster hunting bureau, but maybe a bit ambitious for a team of vigilante PCs, even if they were personally filthy rich.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

That does sound pretty awesome. I don't see any obvious reason why that wouldn't work, ....

I guess the concept is proved in real life by the APDS slug that exists. I was just thinking shot guns are pretty low velocity, so it's not so much you couldn't physically make the thing in theory, just that as velocity is such an important component of it's effect the bonus wouldn't be quite so good as it is higher velocity weapons.

But I'm not basing that gut instinct on anything solid, and that gut instinct is most likely my inner GM's reaction to such a min/max munchkin round!

Higher velocity weapons are modelled by having higher basic penetration damage anyway and the bonus increases that.

Originally Posted by Icelander

...though obviously it would be a pretty pricey R&D job to actually build the things. Possible for a government-funded monster hunting bureau, but maybe a bit ambitious for a team of vigilante PCs, even if they were personally filthy rich.

That's true it's definitely a "Wayne manufacturing" kind of thing. DU is a pretty controlled substance, I wonder if there is an alternative high density material* that can be used (might not have the pyrophoric effect though)

Cheers

TD



*tungsten maybe?

[Icelander]

If am experienced hunter in the 1980s expected to have to engage a horde of bears, Godless killing machines that they are, what kind of gun is he likely to obtain for the purpose?

Could you at that time get a semi-automatic with a detachable magazine in any of the common bear calibers, such as .375 H&H or .416 Rigby? Or at least a bolt-action rifle with a fair number of Shots?