Modern Monster Hunting Guns [XM500, MICOR Leader 50, etc.]

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Nice right up,

But in terms of stats would you not be better of with the Alexander Arms .50 (maybe with an extended magazine, and FA conversion if you really wanted it)? You've lost a point of Bulk and Rcl* I guess but I think I'd prefer 6d+1 pi+.

Comparing a 10.5" barrel to a 16.5" one. From the same barrel length, the .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf differ by maybe 1-2 points of Dmg.

And the Bulk -4* was the entire point of this weapon. At Bulk -5, you can get a .50 BMG weapon that does Dmg 10d+2 pi+. The Alexander Arms Entry .50 Beowulf is neither one thing nor the other, neither a good rifle nor a good carbine, due to the legality issue that forces it to be Bulk -5.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Also will you not have issue with sub sonic and hollow point together occasionally causing the hollow points not to expand (you could go with glasers anyway of course) I maybe wrong about that with heavy rounds though?

It's possible. One reason for choosing .458 SOCOM is that expanding bullets in that caliber have a good reputation.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Another way to go is 10g magnum rifled slugs, but until someone makes a 10g with detachable box magazine, capacity is an issue (as is of course recoil for hitting more than once a turn), but 8d-2 pi++ is hard to argue with.

Shotguns are versatile, legal and powerful in the monster hunting role. If you only want one thing from your gun, however, it makes sense to go with a purpose-designed weapon.

[DocRailgun]

There are also fin-stabilized HEAP, frag, and HE rounds. Also mentioned here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=68268

Put them in an AA-12 which is more or less indestructable and can pump out rounds at full auto, it might be an option.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Shotguns are versatile, legal and powerful in the monster hunting role. If you only want one thing from your gun, however, it makes sense to go with a purpose-designed weapon.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Comparing a 10.5" barrel to a 16.5" one. From the same barrel length, the .458 SOCOM and .50 Beowulf differ by maybe 1-2 points of Dmg.

And the Bulk -4* was the entire point of this weapon. At Bulk -5, you can get a .50 BMG weapon that does Dmg 10d+2 pi+. The Alexander Arms Entry .50 Beowulf is neither one thing nor the other, neither a good rifle nor a good carbine, due to the legality issue that forces it to be Bulk -5..

Ah Ok I didn't realise the Blk was the driving force here, TBF as you mentioned earlier as legality isn't really going to be an issue in MH you can get round that issue in a couple of ways (but may end up removing what advantage the Alexander had). You bulk -5 .50 BMG, will also weigh a lot more as well.

I have to say IME slight differences in Bulk rarely comes up in play, if your running and gunning the difference between -4 and -5 to hit with no aim bonuses isn't going to make that much difference. (Similar to a 1 point difference between high Rcl)

However as skill increases that may change as move and attack because less of an issue.

Originally Posted by Icelander

It's possible. One reason for choosing .458 SOCOM is that expanding bullets in that caliber have a good reputation.

I may well be wrong anyway. The amount of energy is still high, and even if you use the rule in HT it's only a 1 in 6 chance of it happening. I think it really more an issue at a lower TL as the rule implies. And that's the whole point of this, you're using modern versions of older hunting calibres and trying to leverage advantage out of that by being able to get better performance out of smaller guns.

Originally Posted by Icelander

Shotguns are versatile, legal and powerful in the monster hunting role. If you only want one thing from your gun, however, it makes sense to go with a purpose-designed weapon.

True, (although it would seem apart from capacity it could do it as well if not better)


If you could rank your priorities in terms of stats for your gun what would it be? Are you wanting FA or SA. Personally I'd say FA at high Rcl is a bit redundant, and your capacity is not going to match your RoF anyway. But if you going to rely on edge stuff like 4 round bursts than Ok, but you'll still run dry pretty quick with these larger rounds I think.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Green-Neck

Considering that you want an entry gun (not a long range sniper) you could go the route of an aa12 with 3" magnum solids.
Edit: has anyone tried to stat the breneke black magic solids? 600 gr at 1500 fps. I'd be curious to see if they got near your 7d penetration requirement.
Edit 2: using.26 * ((Muzzle Energy in J * Projectile Diameter in cm / .735)^.5)^1.12
I get 7d+1 pi++

Huh even better than messing around with 10g


Hang on what calculator is that? I use Damage (points) = sqrt(KE^1.04/Xsect^0.314)/13.3926 and when I put these stats* for the Black Magic 12g 3" in I get 6d pi++

Am I using an old calculator?

(FWIW I think I get 6d+2 using the ballistics table, which it pretty close to the 6d+1 you get just using the HT rules turning a 3" magnum shotshell 1d+2, into slug damage)

*I'm assuming 3,014 energy ft/sec means energy 3,014 ft lbs which = 4016J

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

Ah Ok I didn't realise the Blk was the driving force here, TBF as you mentioned earlier as legality isn't really going to be an issue in MH you can get round that issue in a couple of ways (but may end up removing what advantage the Alexander had). You bulk -5 .50 BMG, will also weigh a lot more as well.

I have to say IME slight differences in Bulk rarely comes up in play, if your running and gunning the difference between -4 and -5 to hit with no aim bonuses isn't going to make that much difference. (Similar to a 1 point difference between high Rcl)

However as skill increases that may change as move and attack because less of an issue.

Bulk is mainly important in terms of concealing weapons while getting to the mission area. It also matters in CCQ situations, where monsters may tackle the hunters.

Bulk -4* means that a gun may be hidden in a space where no Bulk -5 weapon can fit. It also means a relative +2 to Holdout or Smuggling skill, which is important.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

True, (although it would seem apart from capacity it could do it as well if not better)

Shotguns have their roles, but with Rcl 5-6 for high-power slugs in short weapons, not to mention Weight Per Shot of 0.18 to the 0.08-0.1 for powerful hunting rounds made to work in semi-automatic AR-15 or AR-10 actions, they are a poor choice for replacing a standard carbine.

Originally Posted by Tomsdad

If you could rank your priorities in terms of stats for your gun what would it be? Are you wanting FA or SA. Personally I'd say FA at high Rcl is a bit redundant, and your capacity is not going to match your RoF anyway. But if you going to rely on edge stuff like 4 round bursts than Ok, but you'll still run dry pretty quick with these larger rounds I think.

Carbines which need to be Bulk -4*, battle rifles which need to be Bulk -5* and sharpshooter/anti-materiel rifles that are Bulk -5. All of these need to balance ammunition capacity (Shots, WPS, time to reaload) and ease of rapidly engaging multiple targets (Acc, Rcl, ROF) with power (Dmg, Range). For human targets, that balance leans toward 'enough to seriously wound a human' for power and then the other considerations are most important. For monstrous targets I'm moving the power requirement up to around 5d-6d pi+ for carbines, ca 7d pi+ for battle rifles and higher than that for sharpshooter/anti-materiel rifles. It also helps if one or more of these weapons can be used suppressed with any amount of efficiency.

We already have GURPS stats for the breaching/multi-purpose shotguns, which at least one team member would be likely to carry.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by DocRailgun

There are also fin-stabilized HEAP, frag, and HE rounds. Also mentioned here: http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=68268

Put them in an AA-12 which is more or less indestructable and can pump out rounds at full auto, it might be an option.

Has the AA-12 been statted up in any GURPS supplement?

I'm somewhat sceptical of many of the manufacturer's claims for the weapon, especially in light of the fact that it doesn't seem that any sales of the weapon have been made to militaries, special reaction forces or police departments.

[The_Ryujin]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Has the AA-12 been statted up in any GURPS supplement?

Not that I'm aware of but High-Tech does have the USAS-12 and it's basically a slightly modified AA-12 so if anything the only real difference would largely be the weight and price which is easy enough to look up. The modern AA-12 might, *might* have it's Rcl when firing slugs dropped to 2 which in turn would drop it's ST requirement to 10† but since I never fired one I can't say how much the reality lives up to the hype when it comes to how well it mediates recoil.

Originally Posted by Icelander

I'm somewhat sceptical of many of the manufacturer's claims for the weapon, especially in light of the fact that it doesn't seem that any sales of the weapon have been made to militaries, special reaction forces or police departments.

While I am too, this isn't really a fair way to determine that. Most militaries and police departments see the shotgun as a very limited use weapon and would rather get a few normal over the counter ones since they're cheap and proven then plop down hard money on some fancy new toy. And for the same reasons they've been very wary of full auto shotguns, they just don't see a reason to need one and it's very hard to prove to them otherwise.

That being said I do kinda do see a full auto shotgun having some use for a monster hunter, especially if they hunt pretty beefy monsters.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Bulk is mainly important in terms of concealing weapons while getting to the mission area. It also matters in CCQ situations, where monsters may tackle the hunters.

Bulk -4* means that a gun may be hidden in a space where no Bulk -5 weapon can fit. It also means a relative +2 to Holdout or Smuggling skill, which is important..

Fair enough (and I guess you be adding your suppressors later on after transporting them as well), I'll be honest I hadn't really considered the concealment side of things.

talking of suppressors, I'm guess large calibre short, barrel carbines are going to be very loud!


As for CCQ / CQB the CQB technique comes up in my games more often than not. And in CC I find that PCs with skill enough to be hitting at range, tend not to be fazed by bulk penalties to hit. Or are big fans of dodge/retreat followed by shoot)

Originally Posted by Icelander

Shotguns have their roles, but with Rcl 5-6 for high-power slugs in short weapons, not to mention Weight Per Shot of 0.18 to the 0.08-0.1 for powerful hunting rounds made to work in semi-automatic AR-15 or AR-10 actions, they are a poor choice for replacing a standard carbine.

I think for me the extra '+' without having to worry about an AD(0.5) is the clincher. It also helps if what you're firing at has no vitals, is 'unliving' has DR etc. All of which is good because in MH you never know what you're shooting at.

That AD(0.5) alone is going to cost you 2 damage (so 4 injury on pi++) on target without any DR. that's a 1d-1 loss in damage rating by itself

Also if legality / concealment is an issue, shot guns can hide in plain sight sometimes

Originally Posted by Icelander

Carbines which need to be Bulk -4*, battle rifles which need to be Bulk -5* and sharpshooter/anti-materiel rifles that are Bulk -5. All of these need to balance ammunition capacity (Shots, WPS, time to reaload) and ease of rapidly engaging multiple targets (Acc, Rcl, ROF) with power (Dmg, Range). For human targets, that balance leans toward 'enough to seriously wound a human' for power and then the other considerations are most important. For monstrous targets I'm moving the power requirement up to around 5d-6d pi+ for carbines, ca 7d pi+ for battle rifles and higher than that for sharpshooter/anti-materiel rifles. It also helps if one or more of these weapons can be used suppressed with any amount of efficiency.

We already have GURPS stats for the breaching/multi-purpose shotguns, which at least one team member would be likely to carry.

It sounds like Bulk and damage are the priorities (the rest is all basically as true as it always is)


TBH the more I think about this the more I'm going with a shotgun with slugs. The Franchi SPAS is SA has a box magazine is bulk -5* One thing, I think the SPAS15 can take 3" shells, although TS doesn't give this option. It would need a different magazine I'm guessing, but all the listings I can find that mentions the full shell dimensions allows for 18.5x76mm.

you lose a bit on range and accuracy but you seem to thinking in terms of CQB range anyway?

You lose in ability to carry reloads, but you already pushing that with these larger rounds. Also assuming you're not doing military style long range patrols Im not actually sure how big an issue thsi is. I,e if it not dead after 4 or 5 magazines of 12g slugs it's likely not going to be dead with 8-10 of .458. Your basically doing single encounters than longer ongoing action in the field I think?

Now if we go back to your ST14+ big guns, that opens up options a bit more, but in reality I think they will end up big and bulky, because of what they'll be doing.

That pi++ is the clincher I think Id rather hit with one round of 6dpi++ than hoping to get 3 or 4 MoS and get two hits with say 6-7dpi+

And even then there are shot guns with rcl 3 for slugs.

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Has the AA-12 been statted up in any GURPS supplement?

I'm somewhat sceptical of many of the manufacturer's claims for the weapon, especially in light of the fact that it doesn't seem that any sales of the weapon have been made to militaries, special reaction forces or police departments.

It hasn't but it has been mentioned in several threads here, the general consensus* seems to be it's a Daewoo USAS that can take 3" shells and might have ROF 5-6

*which includes people who's opinion I'd certainly trust

[Tomsdad]

Originally Posted by The_Ryujin

.

That being said I do kinda do see a full auto shotgun having some use for a monster hunter, especially if they hunt pretty beefy monsters.

The problem is with FA shot gun is unless your firing shot*, the recoil gets you. Even the Daewoo / AA12 is Rcl 3 (and I wouldn't go lower, RcL3 for a 12g slug is already v.good).

It's Rof is 5-6 anyway so you never going to get more then +1 for FA fire

so to do better than SA fire (Rof 3) you going to have to get 12 MoS with that extra +1, ultimately I think I rather fire RoF3 especially as capacity is always an issue with all shot guns.

So your basically getting +1 to hit with 4+ burst. So it depends on how much you want that +1, but there are several ways to get that +1 elsewhere (edit: for instance I could put a compensator on a SA shotgun and get the same bonus and save rounds, of course you could put a compensator on a FA shotgun as well).


*And even if you firing shot rof 3x15 vs. rof 5-6x15 is going to be a +1 to hit which might make the difference between hitting at all (but if it does you've just hit with one pellet), or if it one more MoS it going to one more pellet that hits.