Takedown Rifles (1990s)

[Donny Brook]

In terms of hard trails to follow, in the Caribbean environment a good bet would be Soviet (and other) weapons that have transited Cuba or revolutionary trouble-spots in Central America.

[Fred Brackin]

Originally Posted by Donny Brook

In terms of hard trails to follow, in the Caribbean environment a good bet would be Soviet (and other) weapons that have transited Cuba or revolutionary trouble-spots in Central America.

As a general point of tradecraft I would agree that items that point towards some other party are superior to ones that simply lead nowhere.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

There will rarely, if ever, be conditions to shoot at a range, improvised or otherwise, to familiarize themselves or zero the weapons. Not on Caribbean islands, many of which have gun laws derived from British law, i.e. 'no'.

At the time of Caribbean independence, I don't think that the UK had its current laws which make it very hard for civilians to obtain anything but shotguns and black-powder guns. A quick Google says that handgun ownership was heavily restricted after a mass murder in 1996. Early 20th century laws were more focused on preventing 'undesirables' from arming themselves, as summarized in GURPS Pulp Guns 1 p. 5.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

At the time of Caribbean independence, I don't think that the UK had its current laws which make it very hard for civilians to obtain anything but shotguns and black-powder guns. A quick Google says that handgun ownership was heavily restricted after a mass murder in 1996. Early 20th century laws were more focused on preventing 'undesirables' from arming themselves, as summarized in GURPS Pulp Guns 1 p. 5.

Many of the Commonwealth Caribbean islands have some of the strictest gun laws in the world. Like Bermuda:

"Under no circumstances - except for specific, limited duration sporting occasions which include competitive shooting - are visitors and new residents allowed to import or own unlicensed (under Bermuda laws) guns of any kind, not even BB or pellet guns or slingshots. Penalties for doing so are severe. Only when such sporting events occur can participating athletes and/or their sports organizations apply well in advance to be allowed to import their firearms under a temporary Bermuda Government-issued Firearms License. Only they or the Bermuda Police or Bermuda Regiment or some other Bermuda-recognized entity or their registered members authorized to do so may hold Bermuda Firearms Licenses to possess and use Bermuda-licensed firearms in Bermuda.

Offensive and defensive weapons of any kind, like real or fake or toy firearms (guns) of any type, including flare guns and any ammunition; any kind of weapon to deter thieves or intruders; catapults (slingshots); BB guns; cutlasses; crossbows; mace in canisters; pornographic material; throwing knives; flick knives; martial arts weaponry; nightsticks; nunchakus; spiked wristbands; swords; spear guns, all pistols, all rifles, all ammunition for them, signal guns, all other weapons and all live marine animals (including lobsters) by any private individuals. Residents, visitors, and businesspeople who ignore the above will have their weapons seized permanently by the Bermuda Police Service and those convicted will be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They will get a minimum ten year jail sentence for illegally importing the weapons into Bermuda and will be publicized and reported to Federal or provincial or state authorities for illegally carrying firearms on ships or aircraft. It is not an acceptable excuse to say you were not asked by airport staff if you packed your bags yourself, because you were. Nor is it acceptable to say that you forgot an illegal item was in your luggage, or was put there by mistake."

This has been true since some time in the 1960s, I think.

This doesn't mean that illegal weapons don't exist on many of the islands, just that essentially any firearm encountered there will be contraband.

Former Spanish or French islands have a wide variety of different legislation, but approximately everywhere, anyone who is not a citizen (and sometimes, only citizens with good conntections with law enforcement) has no chance of being able to walk into a gun store and buy a firearm legally.

[Polydamas]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Many of the Commonwealth Caribbean islands have some of the strictest gun laws in the world.

You did not say that "Many of the Commonwealth Ctaribbean islands have some of the strictest gun laws in the world." You said that they had these laws because they were derived from British laws, and I think the very strict UK laws came after Caribbean independence.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Polydamas

You did not say that "Many of the Commonwealth Ctaribbean islands have some of the strictest gun laws in the world." You said that they had these laws because they were derived from British laws, and I think the very strict UK laws came after Caribbean independence.

British gun laws have been restrictive since the 1920 Firearms Act, which made the right to bear arms contingent upon Home Secretary and police approval. They were made more restrictive still with the 1933 Firearms and Imitation Firearms (Criminal Use) Bill and the 1937 Firearms Act, when self-defense was removed as a possible justification for a license being granted by the Home Office.

By the time the Firearm Act of 1968 and the Firearm (Amendment) Acts of 1988 and 1997 arrived, they largely only affected the tiny minority of upper class citizens who had any chance of owning sporting firearms, anyway. Ordinary citizens were already effectively disarmed from 1937, excepting shotguns for the farmers.

Added to which, even after Commonwealth countries gained their independence, most of their legislators and legal experts, especially in smaller nations like the Caribbean islands, were still educated in British schools, exposed to British culture and absorbed British law, so that legislation in the newly independent Caribbean Commonwealth countries was substantially influenced by trends in UK legal culture.

[ericthered]

I've lived in former commonwealth Caribbean territories, and can confirm the gun situation. If you see a gun, its a full automatic long arm.

The populace is not exactly unarmed though. 22 inch cane knives are everywhere. I've seen middle aged mothers cutting chicken with them. Violent crimes, especially at the "petty" level, frequently involve them.

Of course, I didn't get to see the illegal weapons, but the murder rate in some places is pretty high, and the response is mostly wrought iron grills over all the doors and windows.

[Icelander]

What are some common optics that might be acquired in the 1987-1995 era, either on the US commercial market or from Europe?

Red dot

If practical, red dot, occluded eye gunsights, holographic or reflex sights might be provided for longarms intended for use at shorter ranges. Of course, tritium gradually dulls with age (becoming too dim to provide a bonus within 10-20 years, generally) and batteries are perishable items, so the utility of such sights is debatable if caches with them are opened many decades later.

Period accurate red dot combat sights include:
Armson OEG (1981-)
Aimpoint Electronic Mark I/II/III (1975-1978/1978-1983/1983-1986)
Aimpoint 1000/2000/3000 (1987-1991/1983-1989/1989-2003)
Ultradot (1989-; the original sight).

Compact, fixed-power scopes

For smaller calibers, especially for use with T/C Contender barrels, I'm looking for compact fixed 2x, 2.5x, 3x and 4x scopes with decent light gathering (for their size) and, if available, illuminated reticles. I suspect that the latter wasn't really common or even available until the mid-1990s.

Eye relief should be generous with these scopes, as they might be used with a buttstock added to the T/C Contender and thus a normal cheekweld or, especially in lighter calibers, the shooter might not attach the buttstock and fire the Contender as a pistol, in which case you need 10"+ eye relief.

Does anyone have suggestions for good scopes here?

Compact, variable power scopes

Compact variable scopes with either 1-4x magnification (in period, more often 1.5-4x), 2-6x or 2-7x seem like a reasonable optic for the kind of precision fire most takedown rifles might be capable of. Leupold also made a compact 3-9x33mm at some point in the 1990s, which seems like a good fit for a rifle that could reach out.

Leupold Vari-X III 1.5-5x20mm (1973-2004) is a neat little scope that has had enduring success on brush rifles. It was 9.75" long, weighed 0.6 lbs., with Leupold base and medium rings adding 0.35 lbs. to that. Eye relief was advertised as 3"-4", but the scope has a reputation for forgiving eye relief, always a good quality for a rifle shared between different shooters.

Leupold Vari-X 2-7x28mm Compact (1990-2004) is a good choice for a light rifle, weighing only 0.5 lbs., with Leupold base and medium rings adding 0.35 lb. to that. At 9.9" it is perhaps too long for a scoped handgun, even one with an added buttstock. Optimum eye relief is 3"-3.9", making it fine for most rifles, but unsuitable for use in a scout mount or a handgun fired in a traditional handgun grip.

The Leupold Vari-X 3-9x33mm Compact (1990-2004) is barely heavier at 0.55 lbs., and slightly longer at 11", adding 0.35 lbs. for Leupold base and medium rings. Eye relief is optimal at 3"-4".

Any suggestions for something good-quality, not exotic enough to be easy to trace, but available easily at some point from 1987-1995?

Precision scopes

For custom takedown Mauser rifles, Blaser R93 rifles, Sauer 200/202 rifles, Winchester 70 takedown from the U.S. Repeating Arms Custom Shop, custom takedown rifles made from a Remington 700 base using a method similar to the H-S Precision one patented in 1990 or some other custom takedown precision rifle, such as one made from a Savage 110, it may be worth mounting a heavier, better scope, as these rifles range from MoA 0.5 to MoA 1.5, depending on ammo, even with the takedown customization.

If any Blaser R93 or Sauer 200/2002 rifles are bought, it would make sense to top them with a good European glass from Kahles, Schmidt & Bender, Swarowski, Zeiss or some equivalent. Something like 3-9x42mm or 3.5-10x56mm, with good light-gathering capabilities and an illuminated reticle.

Zeiss Diavari ZM/Z T*
The Zeiss Diavari ZM/Z T* line, made in Germany before 1997, are high-quality first-focal plane scopes with multi-coating and illuminated reticles. They have 30mm main tubes, which was fairly unusual in the United States in the 20th century.

Zeiss Diavari ZM/Z 1.5-6x42mm T* (1990-1996) is suitable for powerful long-action rifles with a length of 12.6" and weighs 1.25 lbs. The Zeiss rail mount adds 0.3 lbs.

Zeiss Diavari ZM/Z 2.5-10x48mm T* (1990-1996) is 12.8" and weighs around 1.3 lbs. The Zeiss rail mount adds 0.3 lbs.

Zeiss Diavari ZM/Z 3-12x56mm T* (1994-1996) is 15.3" and weighs 1.6 lbs. The Zeiss rail mount adds another 0.3 lbs.

Any other good scopes in that category?

For American commercial rifles chambered in cartridges likely to be effective as far as the shooter can hit (with the caveat that takedown rifles are rarely as accurate as non-takedown models, with the exception of certain very expensive, works of art, like the Blasers, Sauers, Dakotas and H-S Precision ones), I'd need American scopes of similar quality. Leupold, probably.

Leupold Vari-X III 2.5-8x36mm (1973-2004) is a classic all-around scope, at 11.75" long, weighing 0.75 lbs., with Leupold base and medium rings adding 0.35 lbs. to that. Eye relief is advertised 3.6" optimal, but is fairly forgiving in a slight range around that.

Leupold Vari-X III 3.5-10x50mm (1991-2004) is a quality scope that is 12.5" long, weighs 0.85 lbs., with Leupold base and medium rings adding 0.35 lbs. to that weight. Eye relief is 3.5" to 4.4" depending on magnification.

What were the best Leupold scopes on the commercial market in the late 1980s?

Any noteworthy competitors I should consider?

[Rupert]

Originally Posted by Icelander

Any suggestions for something good-quality, not exotic enough to be easy to trace, but available easily at some point from 1987-1995?

I recall the Bushnells and Tascos of the time being of quite reasonable build quality and as lower-end priced scopes I expect they were fairly common.

For general purpose use 4x40mm and 6x40mm were popular at the time, or 4x32mm if you needed a small scope. Given GURPS' rules for scopes, you'd replace those with x2-x5 (or x6) or x3-x9, those being the common power ranges back then. There was still a bit of debate about fixed vs variable power scopes, because the variable power models were in theory a little more delicate and had more ways for moisture to get in. By the end of the nineties that debate was done.

Illuminated reticles were largely considered a gimmick, from what I recall. Something else to go wrong, something else making holes in the scope (and thus points for moisture to enter), and something else for the batteries to fail on unexpectedly. This was from the civilian hunter perspective, but for a weapon that may sit in storage for some time in a warm humid environment I'd avoid optics that used batteries, especially in a pre-2000 setting when batteries just weren't that good.

[Icelander]

Originally Posted by Rupert

I recall the Bushnells and Tascos of the time being of quite reasonable build quality and as lower-end priced scopes I expect they were fairly common.

You are quite right, but I have not yet done enough research to be sure of which models where offered when, how much they weigh, how long and bulky they are, their eye relief, optical qualities, light gathering, etc.

For example, before Bushnell sold Bushnell 3200 scopes, there was a Bausch & Lomb Elite 3200. If I recall correctly, Bushnell acquired Bausch & Lomb at some point and continued to sell scopes under the name for a while.

Originally Posted by Rupert

For general purpose use 4x40mm and 6x40mm were popular at the time, or 4x32mm if you needed a small scope.

These and smaller magnifications might be what I need for T/C Contender barrels, especially if I want to be able to use the same scope to shoot with and without buttstock.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Given GURPS' rules for scopes, you'd replace those with x2-x5 (or x6) or x3-x9, those being the common power ranges back then. There was still a bit of debate about fixed vs variable power scopes, because the variable power models were in theory a little more delicate and had more ways for moisture to get in. By the end of the nineties that debate was done.

In real life, adjusting the controls of a 2010s tactical scope and a 1980s Tasco will not be equal. Part of Aiming for three seconds by a trained tactical shooting using the best modern scopes might be zooming in from a lower magnification, but most of the time, changing magnification will take well over a second. Especially with fairly inexpensive 1980s scopes.

Originally Posted by Rupert

Illuminated reticles were largely considered a gimmick, from what I recall. Something else to go wrong, something else making holes in the scope (and thus points for moisture to enter), and something else for the batteries to fail on unexpectedly. This was from the civilian hunter perspective, but for a weapon that may sit in storage for some time in a warm humid environment I'd avoid optics that used batteries, especially in a pre-2000 setting when batteries just weren't that good.

Especially with T/C Contender barrels or a takedown rifle where the sights are attached to the barrel, it is likely that at least one barrel will have some optics intended to be useful at dusk or even night.

These are mostly electronics based, but might certainly be out of batteries or even malfunctioning decades later.