Redundent advantages?

[maximara]

I was working though a conversion of the D&D 3.x Ooze category and something occurred to me.

Are Immunity to Mind Control [30], Indomitable [15], and Unfazeable [15] redundant with IQ 0 [-200]? I mean in theory you could have a "smart" Black pudding (IQ 1) so those advantages would make sense.

[David Johnston2]

I wouldn't say Oozes are immune to mind control. I'd say that if they have any intelligence it's just too weird for normal mind control to work on it. You'd need a control fungus effect.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I wouldn't say Oozes are immune to mind control. I'd say that if they have any intelligence it's just too weird for normal mind control to work on it. You'd need a control fungus effect.

Interesting as D&D expressly states "An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry) — Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

More over DF Monsters 2 Icky Goo states "Most goo has IQ 0. The IQ 1+ kinds are no easier to control, influence, or scare; they have Immunity to Mind Control, Indomitable, and Unfazeable. "

[Christopher R. Rice]

In GURPS you generally get what you pay for. An IQ 0 beast without the traits you mentioned would just fail on rolls to be dominated, feared, influenced, etc.

[maximara]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

In GURPS you generally get what you pay for. An IQ 0 beast without the traits you mentioned would just fail on rolls to be dominated, feared, influenced, etc.

So a IQ 0 being can be mind controlled even though there is no mind to control? That sounds...weird.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by maximara

So a IQ 0 being can be mind controlled even though there is no mind to control? That sounds...weird.

Yeah. The idea is anyone could Control or Possess it. Again, you get what you pay for. I don't see a GM or designer not adding the things you listed because it makes sense for an ooze to have.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by maximara

So a IQ 0 being can be mind controlled even though there is no mind to control? That sounds...weird.

It's going to have something that passes for a nervous system, which means that it can be affected by things that manipulate its neural responses.

GURPS assumes, a) it's going to have something like a fear response, b) it's going to be susceptible to some sort of influence skills, if only Animal Control or Intimidation, c) its neurological responses can be manipulated by mental psi, magic, etc. attacks. d) in the absence of boosted Per and Will scores, it's functionally incapable of perceiving its surrounding in a meaningful way, or exerting any sort of self-motivation or resistance to Will-based attacks.

Negating a = Unfazeable. Its neural responses only react in response to actual physical damage, rather than perceived danger.

Negating b = Indomitable. Its neural responses are entirely self-controlled and can't be affected by external behavioral manipulation.

Negating c = High Will &/or Immunity (Mental Influence). Psis, mages, etc. can't "get a lock" on its neurological processes to manipulate them.

Alternately, this could be take as a Feature (Only Susceptible to Spells & Powers which affect Fungi). That would set it up to be easily manipulated by people with the right powers or spells, but otherwise immune to Mind Control, Telecommunication, and Body Control, Communication & Empathy, and Mind Control spells.

Negating d = boosted Per and Will scores. Possibly adding sensory disadvantages like Bad Sight or Blind if its primary senses are something other than sight. Deafness, No Sense of Smell/Taste (Limitation: Smell Only), Vibration Sense and Discriminatory Taste (Only to detect & follow ground-based chemical trails) would make sense for something modeled on real life slime molds.

[David Johnston2]

Originally Posted by maximara

Interesting as D&D expressly states "An ooze possesses the following traits (unless otherwise noted in a creature’s entry) — Mindless: No Intelligence score, and immunity to all mind-affecting effects (charms, compulsions, phantasms, patterns, and morale effects)."

More over DF Monsters 2 Icky Goo states "Most goo has IQ 0. The IQ 1+ kinds are no easier to control, influence, or scare; they have Immunity to Mind Control, Indomitable, and Unfazeable. "

I'm aware. I simply argue that oozes should be controllable by the right exotic spell, just as computers are controllable by the right exotic spell. They are simply strange enough that the usual person/animal/plant spells wouldnt be able to do the trick.

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by David Johnston2

I'm aware. I simply argue that oozes should be controllable by the right exotic spell, just as computers are controllable by the right exotic spell. They are simply strange enough that the usual person/animal/plant spells wouldnt be able to do the trick.

This is a common Feature for magical creatures. If you can't be affected by Mind Control college spells, but can be affected by spells of another college it's an even trade-off worth no points.

Animals = Animal.
Elementals = Appropriate elemental college.
Fungi = Fungi (if you don't fold Fungi in with Plant magic)
Machines = Technology.
Plants = Plant.
Lesser Undead = Necromantic.

I'd suggest that oozes, etc. can be controlled by one of Animal, Fungi, or Plant college spells, based on their origins. Alternately, whip up a college of "Slime Magic" which allows you to cast spells based on the nasty properties of fantasy slime monsters.

[Inky]

Originally Posted by Rolando

the reason you use plant college to control plants have nothing to do with the mind/brain/IQ level.

Animals do have GURPS IQ, but they still don't answer to standard Mind Control spells, instead you have to use Animal spells. So it might not be a case of "Mind Control spells only work on things with minds" so much as "Mind Control spells only work on fairly humanlike minds". Although it is called out that the Giant Ape in Dungeon Fantasy Monsters (IQ 6) is "intelligent enough" that Mind Control spells apply rather than Animal spells.

Originally Posted by Rolando

Something with IQ0 is mindless in the sense that it don't have a mind of its own or not a mind at all, or because it is a very simple mind. But you are not controlling the mind, you are controlling the creature.

A machine is IQ0 but controllable, in an ultra tech setting you may control machines with effective IQ0 through neural connection, same with magic or psi powers vs a creature with IQ0 and no protection against control.

And an IQ 0 machine is IQ 0 in the apparently earlier sense - if nobody is controlling it, it just sits there.

Anyhow, if an IQ 0 ooze that can move around spontaneously is rules-legal, then it seems like it should also have to make Fright Checks like any other creature, unless it has the Advantages to say otherwise.