Less than one hex monster - Page 5

Axly Suregrip · 12-03-2021, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amenditman

Are we talking about standard old rats, ~4" long plus tail?
Or are these big rats, something like 10" long plus tail (small cat size)?

These are the rats in ITL (ITL 99-100).

I would say this is a good match: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_rat
That is, body length of 6" to 11".

phiwum · 12-03-2021, 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amenditman

OK, but I have always assumed (yes I know, shouldn't) that the rules are referencing the swarm of small, normal rats that overwhelm the characters in the sewer in a horror flick.

There is no way they are limited to only two to a hex. I'd say maybe 40 to a hex.

I want my nuisances to be nuisances. They should be a deadly to a severely wounded guy left behind (does anyone do that anyway?), but I don't want them to hurt a party so bad they have to give up the adventure -- at least not without a bit of bad luck.

A two-rat-per-hex limit means that even a wounded guy left behind doesn't really give a darn, so long as he's wearing leather. Unlimited could easily be deadly, especially since on example table involves 20 rats for a random encounter. We could mitigate the threat a bit by evenly distributing the rats, but if we let them go for the frontmost character(s) first, it's gonna be pretty bad.

I've decided on a stacking limit of 6 myself. A chainmail guy won't get hurt too much (on average, one hit per turn), but he'll feel it if it takes a while to kill them off. A cloth armor dude is getting 2.5 hits per turn on average. That will hurt a bit.

amenditman · 12-03-2021, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Axly Suregrip

These are the rats in ITL (ITL 99-100).

I would say this is a good match: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_rat
That is, body length of 6" to 11".

If that stacking limit from errata is to be used, then they need to be a lot bigger than that brown rat. The biggest is just barely over 1 lb., 2 is ridiculously few for a 1 pound creature when compared to a 150 pound humanoid.

Axly Suregrip · 12-03-2021, 08:33 PM

This is what I am going to go with:

1)
(ITL 100) "Rats may stack at two per hex; they must still be attacked individually."
Therefore, outside of HTH the limit of these regular sized rats is 2 per hex.

2)
(ITL 100) "If you are
wearing leather, which takes 2 hits, then the first two rat bites
each turn don’t count, but the rest do. A rat must be on the
figure’s hex to attack."
The above expects you will get more than two rats on you. So, clearly the 2 per hex rule is only for non-HTH. In HTH, there is no limit.

3)
As per the previous quote, rats must enter your hex.

4)
(ITL 116) See rules for initiating HTH.
Rats must obey the rules of engaging into HTH. Even slimes have to obey these rules (ITL 99). Therefore, unless your character is down or surrounded, most of the time the rats will likely have to stop in your front hex to engage you in the first turn and then on following turns attempt to enter HTH.

For example, against a dozen rats, all alone, in no armor and standing in the middle of a 3 wide corridor facing 3 hexes. Turn 1, you get a chance to kill two of them (attack and stomp adjacent) as 6 of them are engaging you. Turn 2, now you get 4 on you, if they qualify to enter your hex. Of these 4, you get to attack two of them at DX +4; most like before they attack. So, now you most likely have 2 rats on you. Of which on average 1 hits you. Six new rats enter your front hexes and have to stop since you are still standing and thus engaging them. Turn 3 is where it gets ugly. You should now have 8 rats on you. You kill 2 but 6 bite you for 3 damage. So far you have killed 6, and taken 4 damage if without armor; 6 rats remain on you. If you work out the rest, you will end up killing all 12 rats while taking 7 damage. This bad but also a scenarios stacked against you.

All along I am assuming you score hits (bad assumption in your favor) but also that the rats make their HTH engagement roll (bad assumption in the rats favor since 2/6 chance this would fail and half the time the failure would kill the rat). Let's call it even.

5)
(ITL 124) "An ordinary animal attacked with a torch will fight at -2
DX due to fear of the flame, and will not initiate HTH combat."
If you attack the rats with a torch, then the rat will not enter into HTH. Unfortunately, I take this to mean just the one rat you attacked with the torch. The upside is you either kill the rat or miss but either way that one will not be entering in HTH. I would argue a miss on a rat in hex with you would require it to disengage from HTH.

6)
The point of the example in #4 above is that if you were facing rats alone, you would always position yourself where they cannot run freely into HTH from your back or flank but still without your back to a wall to buy 1 more turn to prevent HTH. Then even so, if you were wearing leather or heavier armor, even with lots of rats you should be okay. In a corridor, you may even stand in the middle. In a corridor with friends, say three abreast, now each of you are only at risk of getting 2 rats on you per turn, which can be mitigated by fighting with torches and still then have to initiate HTH. Rats mostly become dangerous if:
- you are in a wide open space
- you are alone
- you are not in armor
Then how many are we talking about? This is where it comes down to a GM setting up a rat encounter. Is it a corridor or a room or an open space (I expect rats in enclosed dark places)? How many in the party? How experienced will the party be (thus how much armor)?

To keep it a nuisance, I would want to have for a beginning party in a tight place about 10 rats per combatant.

EDIT: changed the melee situation from back against a wall to standing in the middle of a 3 wide corridor facing 3 hexes, while have MA of 10 or more, to prevent the rats from entering your hex on turn 1.

Axly Suregrip · 12-03-2021, 08:41 PM

I think I am going to have large hoards of rats in corridors where the combatants can line up 3 abreast. If they do that right, they will be facing 2 hexes. That is 4 rats per turn for them to kill with 6 attacks. Eventually some will get through and onto them.

Sounds like fun.

Axly Suregrip · 12-03-2021, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by amenditman

If that stacking limit from errata is to be used, then they need to be a lot bigger than that brown rat. The biggest is just barely over 1 lb., 2 is ridiculously few for a 1 pound creature when compared to a 150 pound humanoid.

I agree it is not modelling reality as much as it is creating a balanced and fun game. ITL does not call them giant rats but does limit them to two per hex.

This limitation definitely slows down the rats from swarming you too fast, if you can force them through a front hex-side. A pile of 12 rats in a hex will be able to enter in HTH much faster and thus no longer a nuisance.

If it helps you, say the rats are two feet long each.

hcobb · 12-03-2021, 09:20 PM

What's real fun is having a half dozen wasps on your ex-character.

Axly Suregrip · 12-03-2021, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hcobb

What's real fun is having a half dozen wasps on your ex-character.

Groan. LOL. Yes these are terrible. Nothing to slow them down from entering HTH plus poison! Hope you have armor.

The upside: Your next of kin can collect any wasps you killed and sell them to a chemist. At $10 each, hopefully you killed enough to cover your funeral.

Steve Plambeck · 12-04-2021, 12:43 AM

Whoa! By all the old forgotten gods, it never did nor ever would occur to me to make rats stop in the front hex at all. You can't engage a rat in the formal sense, nor any other small, quick creatures running at you in a swarm! If there was a rush of water flowing down the corridor at you, it wouldn't just come to a stop on reaching your front hex either, would it? In fact rats must be able to not only run straight into your hex, but right through it and on down the corridor behind you without stopping if they wanted to ignore you. (Then your concern might become, what are they running from?!?)

Even less could I even imagine making each individual rat roll to attempt HTH. I've attacked parties with a hundred rats at a time -- the players would surely have killed me if the game stopped for all those rolls.

It's not a regular melee. It's not even HTH combat. The mechanics of running nuisance creatures shouldn't be more than a nuisance themselves. To the characters, to the players, and to the GM.

While the 1 hex figure does not engage the rat(s), neither do the rats engage the 1 hex figure, at least not as I've played it. It's up to the figure to decide between standing in the same hex stomping and swatting, or to keep moving. Option (n) does not apply. Choose to Move full MA, or Move 1/2 MA and Attack one rat, or stand your ground while attacking one rat and stomping another. But ending movement in a hex full of rats is akin to ending movement in a Fire hex as I've played it -- that's what you really don't want to do. Come to a stop in a hex full of rats, they'll all try to bite you during the Action Phase. Keep moving if you can, try to out maneuver the rats and any other enemies at the same time, try to help friends where you can, and just hope to all those old forgotten gods that that door at the end of the tunnel isn't locked.

phiwum · 12-04-2021, 05:49 AM

I thought that the general consensus was that once a rat was in your hex, it was on your person. You could move, but the rats in hex would move with you (just as a slime does).

Steve's suggestion is an interesting alternative. Allow full movement to get away from rats in your hex and put some distance between yourself and them (important to do a full move if you move first in particular). In most situations, you should be able to move far enough that they won't get an attack that turn. If instead you move second, choose your position adjacent to a pack and hit with impunity.

If that's the interpretation, then stacking limits could easily be relaxed and still leave the rats as nuisance critters. They would be deadly in areas where free movement was limited, of course.

12-03-2021, 08:33 PM	#44
Axly Suregrip Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Durham, NC	Re: Less than one hex monster This is what I am going to go with: 1) (ITL 100) "Rats may stack at two per hex; they must still be attacked individually." Therefore, outside of HTH the limit of these regular sized rats is 2 per hex. 2) (ITL 100) "If you are wearing leather, which takes 2 hits, then the first two rat bites each turn don’t count, but the rest do. A rat must be on the figure’s hex to attack." The above expects you will get more than two rats on you. So, clearly the 2 per hex rule is only for non-HTH. In HTH, there is no limit. 3) As per the previous quote, rats must enter your hex. 4) (ITL 116) See rules for initiating HTH. Rats must obey the rules of engaging into HTH. Even slimes have to obey these rules (ITL 99). Therefore, unless your character is down or surrounded, most of the time the rats will likely have to stop in your front hex to engage you in the first turn and then on following turns attempt to enter HTH. For example, against a dozen rats, all alone, in no armor and standing in the middle of a 3 wide corridor facing 3 hexes. Turn 1, you get a chance to kill two of them (attack and stomp adjacent) as 6 of them are engaging you. Turn 2, now you get 4 on you, if they qualify to enter your hex. Of these 4, you get to attack two of them at DX +4; most like before they attack. So, now you most likely have 2 rats on you. Of which on average 1 hits you. Six new rats enter your front hexes and have to stop since you are still standing and thus engaging them. Turn 3 is where it gets ugly. You should now have 8 rats on you. You kill 2 but 6 bite you for 3 damage. So far you have killed 6, and taken 4 damage if without armor; 6 rats remain on you. If you work out the rest, you will end up killing all 12 rats while taking 7 damage. This bad but also a scenarios stacked against you. All along I am assuming you score hits (bad assumption in your favor) but also that the rats make their HTH engagement roll (bad assumption in the rats favor since 2/6 chance this would fail and half the time the failure would kill the rat). Let's call it even. 5) (ITL 124) "An ordinary animal attacked with a torch will fight at -2 DX due to fear of the flame, and will not initiate HTH combat." If you attack the rats with a torch, then the rat will not enter into HTH. Unfortunately, I take this to mean just the one rat you attacked with the torch. The upside is you either kill the rat or miss but either way that one will not be entering in HTH. I would argue a miss on a rat in hex with you would require it to disengage from HTH. 6) The point of the example in #4 above is that if you were facing rats alone, you would always position yourself where they cannot run freely into HTH from your back or flank but still without your back to a wall to buy 1 more turn to prevent HTH. Then even so, if you were wearing leather or heavier armor, even with lots of rats you should be okay. In a corridor, you may even stand in the middle. In a corridor with friends, say three abreast, now each of you are only at risk of getting 2 rats on you per turn, which can be mitigated by fighting with torches and still then have to initiate HTH. Rats mostly become dangerous if: - you are in a wide open space - you are alone - you are not in armor Then how many are we talking about? This is where it comes down to a GM setting up a rat encounter. Is it a corridor or a room or an open space (I expect rats in enclosed dark places)? How many in the party? How experienced will the party be (thus how much armor)? To keep it a nuisance, I would want to have for a beginning party in a tight place about 10 rats per combatant. EDIT: changed the melee situation from back against a wall to standing in the middle of a 3 wide corridor facing 3 hexes, while have MA of 10 or more, to prevent the rats from entering your hex on turn 1. Last edited by Axly Suregrip; 12-03-2021 at 08:47 PM.

12-03-2021, 08:41 PM	#45
Axly Suregrip Join Date: Jun 2018 Location: Durham, NC	Re: Less than one hex monster I think I am going to have large hoards of rats in corridors where the combatants can line up 3 abreast. If they do that right, they will be facing 2 hexes. That is 4 rats per turn for them to kill with 6 attacks. Eventually some will get through and onto them. Sounds like fun.

12-03-2021, 09:20 PM	#47
hcobb Join Date: Aug 2004 Location: Pacheco, California	Re: Less than one hex monster What's real fun is having a half dozen wasps on your ex-character. __________________ -HJC

12-04-2021, 12:43 AM	#49
Steve Plambeck Join Date: Jun 2019	Re: Less than one hex monster Whoa! By all the old forgotten gods, it never did nor ever would occur to me to make rats stop in the front hex at all. You can't engage a rat in the formal sense, nor any other small, quick creatures running at you in a swarm! If there was a rush of water flowing down the corridor at you, it wouldn't just come to a stop on reaching your front hex either, would it? In fact rats must be able to not only run straight into your hex, but right through it and on down the corridor behind you without stopping if they wanted to ignore you. (Then your concern might become, what are they running from?!?) Even less could I even imagine making each individual rat roll to attempt HTH. I've attacked parties with a hundred rats at a time -- the players would surely have killed me if the game stopped for all those rolls. It's not a regular melee. It's not even HTH combat. The mechanics of running nuisance creatures shouldn't be more than a nuisance themselves. To the characters, to the players, and to the GM. While the 1 hex figure does not engage the rat(s), neither do the rats engage the 1 hex figure, at least not as I've played it. It's up to the figure to decide between standing in the same hex stomping and swatting, or to keep moving. Option (n) does not apply. Choose to Move full MA, or Move 1/2 MA and Attack one rat, or stand your ground while attacking one rat and stomping another. But ending movement in a hex full of rats is akin to ending movement in a Fire hex as I've played it -- that's what you really don't want to do. Come to a stop in a hex full of rats, they'll all try to bite you during the Action Phase. Keep moving if you can, try to out maneuver the rats and any other enemies at the same time, try to help friends where you can, and just hope to all those old forgotten gods that that door at the end of the tunnel isn't locked. __________________ "I'm not arguing. I'm just explaining why I'm right."

12-04-2021, 05:49 AM	#50
phiwum Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Boston area	Re: Less than one hex monster I thought that the general consensus was that once a rat was in your hex, it was on your person. You could move, but the rats in hex would move with you (just as a slime does). Steve's suggestion is an interesting alternative. Allow full movement to get away from rats in your hex and put some distance between yourself and them (important to do a full move if you move first in particular). In most situations, you should be able to move far enough that they won't get an attack that turn. If instead you move second, choose your position adjacent to a pack and hit with impunity. If that's the interpretation, then stacking limits could easily be relaxed and still leave the rats as nuisance critters. They would be deadly in areas where free movement was limited, of course.