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Old 05-25-2020, 04:42 PM   #21
hcobb
 
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Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Pacheco, California
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

It would help a bit if Weapon Expertise (and Mastery) were required to unlock the advanced techniques of the unusual weapons as they are required to unlock advanced techniques for swords and spears.
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Old 05-26-2020, 06:46 AM   #22
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Also, the rules do not state this but it should: when a whip is used as a lasso, and succeeds, it cannot be retrieved during combat. The lasso does not say this either but the lasso makes it clear that if you miss it takes 6 turns to retrieve at best.

So, if it is used as a lasso, at least it is consumed for that battle. Of course, at 1.0 pounds, this does not stop our hero from having six more on his belt.
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Old 05-26-2020, 06:43 PM   #23
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
It would help a bit if Weapon Expertise (and Mastery) were required to unlock the advanced techniques of the unusual weapons as they are required to unlock advanced techniques for swords and spears.
Yes, that would allow there to be a range of abilities from "probably not going to do much to a warrior unless it gets lucky" to "pretty capable, but still takes target into account", and make someone who wants to be "like Indiana Jones or Roy Rogers" actually invest talent points for the heroic levels of ability.
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Old 05-26-2020, 09:26 PM   #24
larsdangly
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Another thought that would help 'nerf' these weapons without introducing a bunch of novel rules is to simply require the RAW aiming penalties for attacks against various hit locations. The current rules are strict enough on stat totals that most characters can't give up 3-6 DX points without a meaningful drop in their chance to hit.
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Old 05-26-2020, 10:48 PM   #25
Axly Suregrip
 
Join Date: Jun 2018
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Lots of great input and ideas from everyone. I love the Whip Expertise talent idea from hcobb as that hits it on the head. We should not have an expert level whipping for only 1 talent point at IQ8. Fix this and no longer have hoards of whipping wizards. So, I propose the following as a correction to the Whip, taking a lot of good input through this forum:

Whip:
- Normally 1-2 damage
- May be used like dagger markmenship throwing. no changes here.
- May be used like a Lasso but with a -6/-3/-0 penalty based on talent (see below)
- Lasso affect vs body or arm may only be done if the foe is less than twice whipper's strength.
- Hex behind whipper must be empty (no wall, tree, friend or foe)
- see talent level regarding intervening figures

Whip talent:
- IQ8 cost 1
- intervening figures (Straight down a seem is not intervening): must roll to miss for each. A failure to miss does no damage and stops the whip attack.
- all Lasso style attacks are at -6 DX

Whip Expertise talent:
- IQ11 cost 3
- damage +1 (so damage is now back to 1-1)
- may avoid the first intervening figure without having to roll to miss if he/she is a friend or oblivious to your attack. Additional intervening figures still require a roll to miss.
- all Lasso style attacks are at -3 DX
- PREREQ: DX=12+ and Whip talent

Whip Mastery talent:
(with this level you have the whip as it is in Legacy, but still with the new requirements for STx2 for Lasso effects and empty hex to the rear)
- IQ13 cost 3
- may avoid all intervening figures without rolling to miss
- all Lasso style attacks are at -0 DX
- PREREQ: DX=14+ and Whip Expertise
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Old 05-27-2020, 12:41 PM   #26
Skarg
 
Join Date: May 2015
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Notes on further adjustments I would make to avoid annoying silly abuses:

* All Dagger Marksmanship (let alone whips) should not allow somehow ignoring head armor - certainly not for the same penalty as aiming for the head in general, and probably just not at all, or only with some very low chance of happening.

* I'd probably lower the damage (or at least maximum damage) more per the earlier posts about realistic amounts of injury from a whip compared to a dagger.

* I don't see any need/reason/desire to have any level of talent ignore any intervening figures. I'd want whippers to accomplish that feat with their DX.

* I still think the _main_ problem for me with all of the entangling weapons, is the lack of limits, chance to avoid, or any other difficulty other than the roll to hit. You did add a ST limit, but to me that's not enough. I'd want something like a 3/DX target saving roll to avoid entanglement immediately, before falling down. Personally, I'd probably develop it, say to two rolls - one on DX to avoid entanglement, then another on ST to avoid being pulled to the ground. If the ST roll is made to avoid falling, and the target has a cutting weapon, the person entangled by a whip or lasso could take and action to cut themselves out. Something like that. (It seems like I've written a different version every time this has come up, but they usually have elements like this.)
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Old 05-29-2020, 04:11 AM   #27
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Sydney, Australia
Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

I'm not sure why people think a whip is good for a wizard specifically. It can't be a staff, so a wizard would need a one-turn pause if switching between magic and whip. A thief type would seem more natural, though thieves aren't a big thing in my experience of TFT.

DX penalties for range would make more sense if they also applied to jabs and pikes. Maybe -1 DX for each hex after the first (so +1 relative to throws) for all these weapons.

Whips are most effective used against powerful individual foes. If a GM doesn't allow it to take down a dragon then opportunities for PCs to make a big impact with them might not be all that common?
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Old 05-29-2020, 06:42 AM   #28
hcobb
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Whip only blocks spells of the Wizard's IQ or one less (ITL 142) so for an average starting wizard that's IQ 17 and 16 spells.

Here's a human whip wizard build with blocked spells noted.

ST 8, DX 11, IQ 13, MA 10
Whip(1d-1), Silver Dagger / Staff III (1d-1/1d)
Common, Knife, Literacy, Whip
Aid, *Drain Strength, (*3-hex) Fire, *Flight, Illusion, *Staff III

Note that he has to put away the whip to make a new Staff III, but not to use the occult blast and can cast 1-hex fire without restriction.
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Last edited by hcobb; 05-29-2020 at 07:25 AM.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:42 AM   #29
David Bofinger
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcobb View Post
Whip only blocks spells of the Wizard's IQ or one less (ITL 142) so for an average starting wizard that's IQ 17 and 16 spells.
This notional starting wizard with which you have such an unhealthy obsession doesn't have the ST 8 required to use a whip, so the issue is moot.

Quote:
ST 8, DX 11, IQ 13
Which is superior in combat to a 30-point ST 8, DX 11, IQ 11 wizard ... but not very much. It's quite a penalty.
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Old 05-29-2020, 08:47 AM   #30
RobW
 
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Default Re: The Whip is just wrong

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Bofinger View Post
I'm not sure why people think a whip is good for a wizard specifically. It can't be a staff, so a wizard would need a one-turn pause if switching between magic and whip.
The whip wizard carries a ready whip in one hand, and his staff in the other. Very similar to carrying a ready whip and a torch. He fights with the whip until the moment comes to cast a spell, then drops the whip and casts. Requiring a one turn pause seems very harsh. After dropping his whip, the whip wizard has no whip and well might not for the rest of the battle. But he has done no worse and probably better than the wizard with just a staff.

There's explicit allowance RAW for staffs of various kinds, as long as they have the right "shape". If a sword can be a staff then a wooden whip handle seems reasonable too. But these weapon staffs are a contentious issue.

I like the expertise mastery approach for whips and other peculiar weapons a lot. With these kinds of rules in place we don't expect to see whip wizards everywhere.
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