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Old 08-18-2015, 04:11 PM   #1
philosophyguy
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Default Should Evaluate be worth +2?

The Evaluate maneuver seems underpowered in combat. Compare two options: take an Evaluate maneuver and then attack, versus attack and then attack again on your next turn.

You are more likely to get a hit by attacking twice than by evaluating and attacking if your effective skill is 6 or higher (and you might even get a second hit by attacking twice!) So, evaluating is only useful if your effective skill is 5 or less.

If Evaluate were worth +2, then you would be more likely to get at least one hit with Evaluate (as opposed to attacking twice) if your effective skill is 9 or less—a far more useful range of effective skills—and the bonus is somewhere between 4% and 8%, which doesn't seem overpowering.

The only possible problem I can see with making Evaluate +2 is if it were stacked multiple turns in a row, but limiting the bonus to +1 for each second after the first seems to mitigate that problem.

Are there other reasons why Evaluate should be limited to +1?
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:19 PM   #2
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

Quote:
Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
The Evaluate maneuver seems underpowered in combat. Compare two options: take an Evaluate maneuver and then attack, versus attack and then attack again on your next turn.

You are more likely to get a hit by attacking twice than by evaluating and attacking if your effective skill is 6 or higher (and you might even get a second hit by attacking twice!) So, evaluating is only useful if your effective skill is 5 or less.

If Evaluate were worth +2, then you would be more likely to get at least one hit with Evaluate (as opposed to attacking twice) if your effective skill is 9 or less—a far more useful range of effective skills—and the bonus is somewhere between 4% and 8%, which doesn't seem overpowering.

The only possible problem I can see with making Evaluate +2 is if it were stacked multiple turns in a row, but limiting the bonus to +1 for each second after the first seems to mitigate that problem.

Are there other reasons why Evaluate should be limited to +1?
There was a flurry of discussion of Evaluate about a year ago, including a "Melee Academy" collection of posts. You might mine those for inspiration to start.
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Old 08-18-2015, 04:40 PM   #3
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

To echo a somewhat side-comment made by Douglas Cole in his own linked post, the answer (I have found) is The Last Gasp rules. These really take the edge off the "attack every second, non-stop, forever" approach and mentality—doing that is a good way to exhaust yourself and then get killed, and Evaluate becomes an extremely valuable and tactically important option.
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Old 08-18-2015, 05:01 PM   #4
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

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The Last Gasp... Evaluate becomes an extremely valuable and tactically important option.
Because you're Evaluating, or because it becomes the "Rest" Maneuver?
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Old 08-18-2015, 05:17 PM   #5
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

I have used evaluate to be +2/second with a +4 maximum for quite a long time with no found drawbacks.

It is still extremely rare for people to take it, but now it is maybe "twice in a blue moon" instead of the previous "once in a blue moon".

So for players to see a benefit in it it should likely be even more... But sticking with the +2 for now.
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Old 08-18-2015, 05:49 PM   #6
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

The only time I've seen Evaluate used was by invisible or nigh-invisible PCs setting up a melee ambush.

I've never seen it used in the heat. If a PC was missing due to low skill they either run away or find some other way to contribute to a fight.
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Old 08-19-2015, 04:42 AM   #7
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

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Originally Posted by philosophyguy View Post
The Evaluate maneuver seems underpowered in combat. Compare two options: take an Evaluate maneuver and then attack, versus attack and then attack again on your next turn.
I wouldn't mind boosts to Evaluate, but I think that is the wrong option to compare it to: Attack and then Attack again is actually limited to a fairly specific set of circumstances – namely that you are already standing within weapon reach, something I would not recommend doing longer than necessary.

Think of what other options you can compare it to. For instance, standing outside of range – you can use Evaluate on anyone you could Move-And-Attack against, so compare it with some of the other options in those circumstances.

Move-and-Attack = -4 to hit, max skill of 9, -2 defences.

Move-and-Attack (slam) = normal attack skill, but probably less damage than your weapon, has a chance of hurting or knocking down you, and still -2 defences. Also, if they Dodge, you rush past them, meaning they could turn and attack you from behind on their next turn.

All-Out Attack = decent attack options, but if it doesn't work then no defence at all next round.

All of those options seem very risky to me, since they leave you exposed to a hit immediately after. The one with the fewest risks has a severe attack penalty, making it still a very unreliable option. The cautious choice would be to slowly step closer while Evaluating for +1 (up to +3 if you keep at it) from a position of relative safety.

Essentially Evaluate is what you do when you do not want to risk being the one to rush in first and lower your defences. Evaluate also makes the risk of the other guy rushing in first even higher, because the attack they expose themselves to by rushing in will have the bonus from Evaluate.

At high skill, Evaluate remains useful for offsetting penalties for your first attack – such as from Deceptive Attack, or aiming for the weapon hand, or a Disarm if you want to stay outside the reach of their weapon.

If you stand and Evaluate from 1 hex away, it's a bad idea. But if you start Evaluating from 5 hexes back, it becomes a much more sensible option.
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Old 08-19-2015, 08:47 AM   #8
Anaraxes
 
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

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Essentially Evaluate is what you do when you do not want to risk being the one to rush in first and lower your defences.
This is my impression from watching the sorts of things people cite as a need for Evaluate -- boxers dancing around in the ring instead of punching away. I'm ignorant of martial arts, but this looks to me as much as not wanting to give the opponent an opening as anything else. You might model that by having defenses lowered when you attack.

And in a way, they already are. If those boxers are skipping around All-out Defending, then if one of them switches to Move and Attack, he has relatively less defense. (The defender's AoD is still in place from the previous turn; he defends, then on his turn also changes to Attack, but this counter-attack is against the attacker's regular defense.)

Holding back instead of constantly attacking isn't because you're building up a better attack; it's because most people are naturally risk-averse, even combatants.

The incentive to be the first to attack is external to the combat mechanics. It's the three-minute timer ticking away when you're behind on points, or the desire of the challenger to dethrone the champion, which means he has to take a risk to make something happen, or just the fact that they're there to box and they get bored.

The last point is artificially high, and extremely so, for players in a game context. Also, there's the "PCs are supposed to win" factor, which tends to reduce the perceived risk of attacking. If you're better than your opponent, or at least think you are, then you're more likely to take the risk of wading in first and taking that first hit.
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Old 08-19-2015, 11:33 AM   #9
fula farbrorn
 
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

one thing i was looking at, was having the players/NPCs roll VS will at -2, if they make the roll they get to attack freely, if they fail they can choose any action thats not a attack, and on a 18 they have to step out of the combat if feasible
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Old 08-20-2015, 02:43 PM   #10
philosophyguy
 
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Default Re: Should Evaluate be worth +2?

Thank you for the detailed suggestions. I just posted a question about fatigue rules recently and The Last Gasp was suggested there as well. Can someone give me a summary that's slightly deeper than the teaser text for the Pyramid issue? In particular, I'm wondering about the Action Point system because I'm looking for ways to simplify my games, and that sounds like it would be another detail to keep track of.
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