Does Telekinesis include senses of touch and proprioception

[Apollonian]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Yeah, if there were no feedback at all the TK "hands" would probably have Hamfisted and/or Bad Grip. But I don't think TK 1 should just give you the ability to feel anything in range of your TK - rather, you need only what's necessary to use it without stuff getting problematic ("Oh, sorry, you didn't realize the MacGuffin was caught on something, and because your TK is really strong, you broke it trying to pull it toward you").

I think this is where I'll go with it at the table. As written, there's no implied penalty for using TK for tasks, and it even grants a bonus if used for tasks that benefit from High Manual Dexterity. But if a character wants to use it primarily for a sense, they'll need to add on an ability.

That's not even getting into the rest of the touch sense, like feeling heat and pain...

[Michael Thayne]

One approach might be to say that it gives you a sense of how much "resistance" your TK is facing—e.g. a rough sense of the weight of an object you're lifting (but with no more precision than you'd get trying to "feel" the weight in your actual hands).

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Varyon

Yeah, if there were no feedback at all the TK "hands" would probably have Hamfisted and/or Bad Grip.

it'd be neat if you had to buy up the DX of your TK from 0 instead of it inheriting the DX of your body, like how in 3e Spirits you paid FP to buy DX for your Poltergeist Effect.

Originally Posted by Varyon

I don't think TK 1 should just give you the ability to feel anything in range of your TK - rather, you need only what's necessary to use it without stuff getting problematic ("Oh, sorry, you didn't realize the MacGuffin was caught on something, and because your TK is really strong, you broke it trying to pull it toward you").

to feel it was caught on something you'd probably need separate maneuvers feeling around (as if you were blind or in darkness) to notice the snag, it should be possible but not instantaneous

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by Michael Thayne

One approach might be to say that it gives you a sense of how much "resistance" your TK is facing—e.g. a rough sense of the weight of an object you're lifting (but with no more precision than you'd get trying to "feel" the weight in your actual hands).

I think of TK as sort of like using a hand tool - you get certain sensations (resistance to pressure, vibration, weight) through the tool but not full sense of touch.

Likewise, if you know what you're doing, you can automatically extend your sense of proprioception when when using hand tools or melee weapons. For example, a skilled swordsman knows exactly where his blade is in relation to his body.

In some cases, you can extend proprioception to include very fine spatial sensing of nearby objects or people. For example, a surgeon knows exactly where his scalpel is not only in relation to only to his own body but also to his patient's body. Presumably, that's why High Manual Dexterity applies to TK rolls.

If there's an issue using TK, then you can possibly buy off penalties using a variant of the Work by Touch technique, which specifically covers task-specific proprioception.

[Christopher R. Rice]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Does standard telekinesis include a sense of touch, and if so, how sensitive is it?

Ditto proprioception - the ability to tell where your "hands" are without looking.

Given the ability's description of granting the character a pair of "invisible hands" with a 10' range, I assume that the sense of touch matches the characters actual hands, but I'm looking for confirmation either for or against.

Yes. It's exactly like another pair of hands you can project - plus it gives you the equivalent of 4 levels of High Manual Dexterity. That says to me that it's even better than your regular hands in regards to these things.

[Plane]

Originally Posted by Christopher R. Rice

Yes. It's exactly like another pair of hands you can project - plus it gives you the equivalent of 4 levels of High Manual Dexterity. That says to me that it's even better than your regular hands in regards to these things.

I got the sense that when you got the +4 it was because you were using both your normal means (hands) with telekinesis as a booster. Thus the phrasing "All of the above assumes that you are using TK to perform a task at a distance. TK can also ..." before mentioning the bonus.

TK's +4 is also mentioned in Powers 162 "Abilities Helping Skills"

[malloyd]

Originally Posted by Apollonian

Does standard telekinesis include a sense of touch, and if so, how sensitive is it?

I'd tend to say no. Telekinesis has to include knowing where your "hands" are and how tightly they are "gripping", but it isn't necessarily a sense that has any relationship to the senses that allow you to do that with your actual hands. That is, they exist only to explain why Telekinesis isn't totally useless, if you are trying to use those senses for anything else, it doesn't work, buy Clairsentience if you want a power to sense things at range.

This is something that comes up with a lot of powers often called something like necessary secondary powers. The basic concept of GURPS (or any other point buy system) is you get the necessary part, but not anything else, regardless of how "illogical" that seems. About the only reason this is ever a debate is people either want a power for free, or they want to nerf the base power and claim they are not, and neither of those gains a lot of sympathy from me.

[kirbwarrior]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd tend to say no. Telekinesis has to include knowing where your "hands" are and how tightly they are "gripping", but it isn't necessarily a sense that has any relationship to the senses that allow you to do that with your actual hands. That is, they exist only to explain why Telekinesis isn't totally useless, if you are trying to use those senses for anything else, it doesn't work, buy Clairsentience if you want a power to sense things at range.

Would Link work for Clairsentience to "attach" your senses to it (presumably with Touch Only)? I'm guessing it would need Reduced Time since it needs a minute to start up. Are the other changes needed so it can "keep up" with TK?

[Donny Brook]

Originally Posted by malloyd

I'd tend to say no. Telekinesis has to include knowing where your "hands" are and how tightly they are "gripping", but it isn't necessarily a sense that has any relationship to the senses that allow you to do that with your actual hands. That is, they exist only to explain why Telekinesis isn't totally useless, if you are trying to use those senses for anything else, it doesn't work, buy Clairsentience if you want a power to sense things at range.

This is something that comes up with a lot of powers often called something like necessary secondary powers. The basic concept of GURPS (or any other point buy system) is you get the necessary part, but not anything else, regardless of how "illogical" that seems. About the only reason this is ever a debate is people either want a power for free, or they want to nerf the base power and claim they are not, and neither of those gains a lot of sympathy from me.

I think this is the best answer.