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Old 03-16-2020, 10:04 AM   #1
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default should Wizardly Dabbler spells suffer the Spell Defaults penalties?

M202:
Spells cast at default cost twice as much energy and take twice as long to cast.
PU2(perks)16:
Select eight skills (which must have defaults) that you can use at +1 to the usual attribute default.
..
The selected skills still count as defaults, not as studied skills.
Thaumatology: Magical Styles 33:
Pick eight Hard (but not Very Hard) spells that you can cast at IQ-6.
If using the approach that Wizardly Dabbler is just a variant of Dabbler (except 'must have defaults' is replaced with ~"treat Hard skills lacking defaults as having a default of IQ minus seven"~) then would it seem reasonable to apply this x2 energy x2 time restriction?

MS25's "Improvised Magic" perk resembles M202's optional "Spell Defaults" rule except substituting "style" for "college".

If the IM/SD system alone has these doubling penalties it might become less attractive to use known despite resulting in lesser penalties.

1 point in a Hard skill brings it up to IQ-2, so -4 on top of that is IQ-6 for a spell default, basically the same as being a wizardly dabbler in it... but who would want to use that if it suffered the x2 time/energy while Dabbler didn't suffer it?

This also interferes with synergy, like using Dabbler to buy up the higher defaults you get if using that rule or perk, if we don't apply the doublings-penalty to basic WD usage.

Given that Wizardly Dabbler is basically already enjoying a special benefit over normally dabbler (ability to default no-default skills, for example I can't use Dabbler to learn unarmed combat skills) applying this penalty from the optional Spell Defaults rule (x2 energy, x2 time) which the Improvised Magic perk also suffers seems like a good balancing mechanism for fairness. Thoughts?
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Old 03-16-2020, 11:24 AM   #2
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: should Wizardly Dabbler spells suffer the Spell Defaults penalties?

No. When you have the dabbler perk you aren't really at default. You're at slightly above default. If you were going to use the Spell Defaults rule, then I wouldn't even use Wizardly Dabbler. I'd just use Dabbler.
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Old 03-16-2020, 01:05 PM   #3
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should Wizardly Dabbler spells suffer the Spell Defaults penalties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
No. When you have the dabbler perk you aren't really at default. You're at slightly above default. If you were going to use the Spell Defaults rule, then I wouldn't even use Wizardly Dabbler. I'd just use Dabbler.
In the case of either perk I it functions like being at default for some purposes like not being able to default other skills from it. So I'm wondering if we could treat it like defaulting in this other context of needing more energy/time

The Spell Defaults rule would only let you default at -4 to spells in the same college, so I don't think you could use it to generate defaults (for Muggle-Dabbler to buy up) for spells in colleges you don't have a point in.

So it seems like Wizardly Dabbler would still serve a purpose there, for getting casting ability (at less than 1 point investment) for foreign colleges.
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Old 03-16-2020, 02:14 PM   #4
David Johnston2
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Default Re: should Wizardly Dabbler spells suffer the Spell Defaults penalties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plane View Post
In the case of either perk I it functions like being at default for some purposes like not being able to default other skills from it. So I'm wondering if we could treat it like defaulting in this other context of needing more energy/time
Wizardly Dabbler already makes you terrible unless you're superhumanly intelligent. You don't need to be more terrible.
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Old 03-16-2020, 10:44 PM   #5
Plane
 
Join Date: Aug 2018
Default Re: should Wizardly Dabbler spells suffer the Spell Defaults penalties?

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Johnston2 View Post
Wizardly Dabbler already makes you terrible unless you're superhumanly intelligent. You don't need to be more terrible.
4 at IQ-5 or 2 at IQ-4 isn't that bad. One point in a Hard skill would normally only get you to IQ-2, so I guess I could look at it like....

1) normally the defaults for Hard IQ skills (for those that list them) are usually just IQ-6
2) this treats the defeat as IQ-7 like it was a -1 technique for the special benefit of being able to default which is normally off limits

Doubled energy doesn't seem that terrible since all these low level spells probably don't cost much energy to begin with.

I just wonder if people would bother using non-Dabbler defaults costing twice as long to cast if they could get a mass of dabblered defaults where they can avoid that penalty.
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