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Old 05-16-2022, 11:23 AM   #11
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Lawrence, KS
Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

It seems to me that the astral or spirit realm of GURPS Cabal maps fairly well to the realm of spirits in Mage, and the divine realm maps to the sphere of Prime. The archetypal realm in between doesn't have such an obvious analog.

I do like the underlying concept of radical subjectivism in Mage. But I like the cosmology of GURPS Cabal better. I've run campaigns using both, with different emphases.

In both my Mage campaigns (one set in Hong Kong ca. 2000, and one in London ca. 1905), I went with the replacement of Spirit with Dimensional Science. But I made another replacement, inspired partly by Ayn Rand's line about the Mystics of Spirit and the Mystics of Muscle: I had the Technocracy deny the sphere of Prime and substitute the sphere of Society. This did two things: it let you perceive social processes and manipulate or create groups, organizations, and polities (comparable to what the sphere of Life did with organisms) and it supplied power for wonder working, but based not on Quintessence but on Capital (and thus requiring a material basis in the operations of Society). This fitted into such ideas as Comte's Religion of Humanity and Marx's historical materialism. (In the Hong Kong campaign the PCs were puzzled for a long time by mainland Chinese agents who relied on Society for their "spells.")

Oh, and one last thought: It's true that GURPS Cabal was founded in Hermeticism, but it also appears that the Nine Traditions have a strong Hermetic influence. The Order of Hermes was one of the groups that brought everyone together, they originally wanted to have all the other practitioners brought under Hermetic discipline, the definition of the Spheres came partly from Hermeticism, and the eventually inclusion of all the tribal and shamanic traditions in the Dreamspeakers seems akin to the way various non-Hermetic groups were defined within the OoH as House Ex Miscellanea.
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Last edited by whswhs; 05-16-2022 at 01:41 PM.
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Old 05-16-2022, 03:52 PM   #12
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

Quote:
Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
It seems to me that the astral or spirit realm of GURPS Cabal maps fairly well to the realm of spirits in Mage, and the divine realm maps to the sphere of Prime. The archetypal realm in between doesn't have such an obvious analog.

I do like the underlying concept of radical subjectivism in Mage. But I like the cosmology of GURPS Cabal better. I've run campaigns using both, with different emphases.

In both my Mage campaigns (one set in Hong Kong ca. 2000, and one in London ca. 1905), I went with the replacement of Spirit with Dimensional Science. But I made another replacement, inspired partly by Ayn Rand's line about the Mystics of Spirit and the Mystics of Muscle: I had the Technocracy deny the sphere of Prime and substitute the sphere of Society. This did two things: it let you perceive social processes and manipulate or create groups, organizations, and polities (comparable to what the sphere of Life did with organisms) and it supplied power for wonder working, but based not on Quintessence but on Capital (and thus requiring a material basis in the operations of Society). This fitted into such ideas as Comte's Religion of Humanity and Marx's historical materialism. (In the Hong Kong campaign the PCs were puzzled for a long time by mainland Chinese agents who relied on Society for their "spells.")

Oh, and one last thought: It's true that GURPS Cabal was founded in Hermeticism, but it also appears that the Nine Traditions have a strong Hermetic influence. The Order of Hermes was one of the groups that brought everyone together, they originally wanted to have all the other practitioners brought under Hermetic discipline, the definition of the Spheres came partly from Hermeticism, and the eventually inclusion of all the tribal and shamanic traditions in the Dreamspeakers seems akin to the way various non-Hermetic groups were defined within the OoH as House Ex Miscellanea.
To tell you the truth, I never liked the 9 Spheres of Mage. Actually, I love them, but I find them perfect for the Hermetics - I dislike them for the Dreamspeakers and the Technocrats and many others.

The game descriptions themselves tells that that model of 9 Spheres is NOT how all Traditions - other groups view magic, however game mechanics kind of petrify us into that mindset. So, it doesnt matter if my mage believes that Alchemy can make potions to see ghosts, if I dont have Spirit 1 I dont have that.

Thus come Gurps (which I already used because the D10 mechanics are cursed), and it's so easy to adapt (even without the Gurps Mage Ascension 3e), and I introduced a few adaptations of my own (my game has "Willpower" as a sort of ER or alternative FP, but also "Soul" as yet another ER, each with their proper uses, like resisting mental attacks or Soul replacing your HP on the spirit planes and being a sort of "life pulse", a desire for living, anyway I digress).

And the most beautiful thing EVER: Realm Magic

Realm Magic has irrevocably and irreversably changed my Mage games. Now my Dreamspeakers have 3 Realms: Mind, Spirit and Body (Mind being the "illusions of the senses", thus broadly representing the Time, Space and Entropy Spheres - no, "Mind" Sphere is not in their Mind Realm, you'll understand why; Spirit Realm represents the Realm of the "conscience", that which gives form to the "great dream" of reality, thus it is broadly the Mind, Spirit and Prime Spheres, and finally the Body Realm is the realm of the "illusions of the material", thus is Life, Matter and Forces Spheres).

With Realm Magic I made numerous other changes, like the Space/Time Realm and the Biochemistry Realm for Technocrats, I also created a few "Super Realms" as I call them, for encompassing a lot of stuff but in very restricted ways, like Necromancy Realm or Alchemy Realm (Alchemy being able to do pretty much ANYTHING save a few exceptions, but with the very hard restrictions of material components, time etc).

And of course the "Sub Realms", which allows my Hermetics to be a "Winter Mage" or a "Pyromancer" instead of also knowing how to levitate and cast lighting bolts and control gravity. No, my Pyromancer deals ONLY with Fire, and my Winter Mage only with Ice and Frost.

I even created the "Sub Realm" of "Memetics" for the propagandists of the New World Order, which has some similarities with this "Society" Sphere that you created, but focused on "hypnotic propaganda" (well, memetic is pretty much self explanatory, but that's a "magic" level of it).

By the way, I loved your Society Sphere! You can bet this is going to become my very next weapon of my Technocrats arsenal! Society Realm, thanks a lot!
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Old 05-16-2022, 04:07 PM   #13
Refplace
 
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Join Date: Nov 2008
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Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

You might also like GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes which helps you build Arete if you want to include that.
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My GURPS publications GURPS Powers: Totem and Nature Spirits; GURPS Template Toolkit 4: Spirits; Pyramid articles. Buying them lets us know you want more!
My GURPS fan contribution and blog:
REFPLace GURPS Landing Page
My List of GURPS You Tube videos (plus a few other useful items)
My GURPS Wiki entries
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Old 05-16-2022, 04:47 PM   #14
whswhs
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
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Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
By the way, I loved your Society Sphere! You can bet this is going to become my very next weapon of my Technocrats arsenal! Society Realm, thanks a lot!
I think I still have a somewhat more detailed writeup. If you'd like to see it, private message me with an e-mail address and I'll dig it out and send it along.
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Old 05-16-2022, 07:06 PM   #15
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

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Originally Posted by Refplace View Post
You might also like GURPS Power-Ups 9: Alternate Attributes which helps you build Arete if you want to include that.
I do use several alternate attributes, not only those that I cited. Thanks for the info, I'll check it out
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Old 05-16-2022, 07:07 PM   #16
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Brazil
Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

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Originally Posted by whswhs View Post
I think I still have a somewhat more detailed writeup. If you'd like to see it, private message me with an e-mail address and I'll dig it out and send it along.
Post it here if that's alright to you, maybe other people can benefit too, if that's not too much trouble
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Old 05-16-2022, 09:23 PM   #17
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

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Originally Posted by KarlKost View Post
Post it here if that's alright to you, maybe other people can benefit too, if that's not too much trouble
It may be a bit long, and I'm going to have to add a few paragraphs to make it complete, so there'll be a little delay.
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Old 05-17-2022, 07:18 AM   #18
KarlKost
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
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Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

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It may be a bit long, and I'm going to have to add a few paragraphs to make it complete, so there'll be a little delay.
No problem mate, but if this is going to be too much trouble for you dont worry, no need to feel pressured, I liked the idea and I'll work on it by myself regardless, Im already thankful for the excellent suggestion
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Old 05-17-2022, 09:35 AM   #19
whswhs
 
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Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

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No problem mate, but if this is going to be too much trouble for you dont worry, no need to feel pressured, I liked the idea and I'll work on it by myself regardless, Im already thankful for the excellent suggestion
No, I just needed a few more minutes than I anticipated to cover all the bases. I didn't recall that my outline left some things incomplete. Here you go:

• Perceive Social Relations
Access Capital

To recognize the social position of an individual or the structure of a group, organization, or polity, use Society 1.
To gain access to Capital for a project from a Node (a financial entity), up to your Avatar, use Society 1.

• Influence Group
Requisition

To change the behavior or organization of an existing group, use Society 2.
To use Capital to acquire assets or services (objects, living creatures, energy, or human labor), or to have these repaired or restored, use Society 2. (This is understood as using a credit card, letter of credit, or the like to arrange delivery of what is needed.) This must be combined with Matter 2, Forces 3, Life 3, or Society 3 to put the capital into a visible form.

• Create Group
Influence Organization
Realize
Endow

To create a new group, use Society 3.
To change the behavior or organization of an existing organization, use Society 3.
To transform an investment good (fine art, real estate, stock portfolios, or the like) into Capital, up to your Avatar, use Society 3.
To create an advanced scientific device based on invested Capital, use the rules for creating Talismans.

• Create Organization
Influence Polity
Liquidate

To create a new organization, use Society 4.
To change the behavior or organization of an existing state, use Society 4.
To transform ordinary assets (often represented as Resources levels) into Capital, dissolving the organization that owns them, use Society 4. A level 5 variant can do the same for living beings.

• Create Polity
Tax

To create a new state, use Society 5.
To extract funds from the ongoing economic activity of a society and turn them into Capital, up to your Avatar, use Society 5.

— I think it may be clear that the Syndicate and the New World Order are big time users of this Sphere. The NWO mainly uses the influence and create effects; the Syndicate mainly uses the ones that work on Capital.
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Old 05-17-2022, 04:04 PM   #20
Inky
 
Join Date: Sep 2019
Location: UK
Default Re: Ideas for Spirit World

Makes sense about different types of magic working differently. It does seem a bit silly that although the 9 Traditions' styles of magic are supposed to be so different, and the Technocrats' even more so, they use exactly the same classifications and mechanics.

And with the Technocrats' inside-out and back-to-front approach to magic, which they don't even admit is magic, it fits for them to do something mechanically weird like not having the Prime sphere.

What happens (in your system) if the different Paradigms don't even agree about the nature of the task they're trying to do? For instance, suppose there are three mages in the 1600s trying to make amulets to ward off the Black Plague. One of them, ahead of his time, thinks the plague is caused by a living organism, and uses the Life sphere to make his amulet. Another is convinced that it's caused by evil spirits, and uses the Spirit sphere. The third thinks it's caused by "noxious vapours", and uses the Matter sphere. Which of the amulets work? All of them? The one that matches the theory that's most popular among the general public? The Life one because that one is "objectively correct", except in a world that follows Mage rules, is there any such thing as "objectively correct" or do the facts actually change to match what the majority of people nearby believe?
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Last edited by Inky; 05-17-2022 at 04:08 PM.
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