03-23-2022, 12:42 PM | #1 |
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: arlington texas
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Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
I was reading about grappling and came across this.
Unarmed Grappling Attack. Roll against DX or a grappling skill—Judo, Sumo Wrestling, or Wrestling— to hit and establish or develop a grapple. If I have no grappling skill and a 13 DX. Would I roll at a DEFAULT of Wrestling -2 or whatever? It seems to say that I choose either a SKILL roll or a DX roll. The skill roll would be the wrestling-2 or whatever the default is. So how does having no training in wrestling let me wrestle better than someone who has spent 1 point in it for example? Because if I spend 1 point on Wrestling it would still be lower than my natural DX roll, right? Those kinds of rules never made sense to me. Shouldn't I take the same default penalty to my DX roll that I would take to a skill roll at Default? Why do I get to use base DX?? |
03-23-2022, 06:08 PM | #2 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
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This is an old post I did for Judo, but the format (and the analogous what can and can't you do? for Wresting) should carry over. Kromm laid down the format, so I tried to do the same thing for Judo. This is bascially a find/replace of Judo for Karate, since they mostly have the same rules. Remember to use the higher of DX or skill. Going by the Basic Set alone, doing all the math to express things relative to DX (drop fractions at the very end!), and putting the benefits of Judo in boldface, the real progression is this:
Adding in the Martial Arts rules gives you a bunch more techniques (some of which default to untrained DX). If using Technical Grappling, Judo doesn’t start to “pay off” in the form of extra Trained ST until you reach DX+4 (+0.5 extra Control Points per roll). Parting Shot A point in Judo goes one important thing right off the bat – it enables Judo Throw following a parry using Judo. Now, in order to make it work, you’ll need to invest. I had a character with Axe/Mace-18 and the Perk Judo Throw defaults to Axe/Mace and could not get Judo Throws to work reliably in combat, so it’s not a slam dunk. But Judo Parry sets up both throws and locks that you must invest in a grappling skill in order to take advantage of. Once you get 4 points in, anything you can do with DX you can do with Judo instead. That’s the key breakpoint. At 8 points, anything you do with DX you do better with Judo if there’s an option. For Wrestling, you won't get the Judo Throw or the ability to parry weapons without risking dismemberment/injury, but you will get bonuses to ST at DX+1 and DX+2 when you wrestle for Contests of ST.
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My blog:Gaming Ballistic, LLC My Store: Gaming Ballistic on Shopify My Patreon: Gaming Ballistic on Patreon Last edited by DouglasCole; 03-23-2022 at 06:13 PM. |
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03-24-2022, 08:12 AM | #3 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
The brief answer: Always use the roll that's best for you. If your grappling skill is at less than DX, use DX. You don't become worse for learning a skill . . . you're never obliged to roll vs. your skill level to grapple, and probably won't want to do so until your skill surpasses your DX.
Which said, it's still worth learning a grappling skill for the tricks it offers. Adventurers, p. 92: Want to throw people around? You need to attack with Judo. No amount of DX alone permits this move.Clearly, Judo is best and the other two aren't as useful. If the GM adds in moves from GURPS, though, they generally don't default to DX. You need skill. But there's no promise that spending points on anything will make you good at low levels. This is why all templates offer enough points to raise skills to levels where they're useful.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
03-24-2022, 09:42 AM | #4 | |
Doctor of GURPS Ballistics
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Lakeville, MN
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
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For strong characters who intend to lock down a single foe with grappling, Wrestling has been the huckleberry for a while. Sumo is the odd skill out, though I've seen it used to great effect combined with weapons to shove folks to optimum cuisinart range so that your long weapon is maximally useful, and you can deny the ability of foes to force you to use close combat.
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03-24-2022, 10:24 AM | #5 | |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
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People would find it more fun, I think, if we just let slams made with it be even less risky. Say, you always get a skill roll not to fall down, no matter what you slam or how badly you mess up; your slams (and shoves!) count as armed attacks for the purpose of enemy parries; and your slams (and shoves!) use ST-based skill where better than ST. So, slam maniacs could just run at spearmen, at worst get parried (not stabbed or knocked down), and almost certainly flatten what they hit. It isn't as if it would be any more overpowered than anything else.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
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03-24-2022, 11:18 AM | #6 |
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
You've seen shoves actually be useful? I'm impressed.
Sumo is pretty awesome as slams are sweet, but weapon masters slamming with shields are even more sweet If you don't have a shield: 1. You have a bow - you don't need to slam you shoot bow 2 - you are a wimp - slamming is a bad idea 3 - you are a brawny meatball with a 2 hander - slam is ideal to close the range! In a game where meteoric arrows are uncommon and missile shield is common it's great for archers! |
03-24-2022, 11:32 AM | #7 |
GURPS Line Editor
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Montréal, Québec
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
They're wonderful in fights where one step to either side is a pit of death, so you don't want to risk a slam that could miss or make you fall down, and end up in the pit. But the other guy is able to eat your damage. So, shove him down the pit and let it do the damage.
Maybe you had to be there.
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Sean "Dr. Kromm" Punch <kromm@sjgames.com> GURPS Line Editor, Steve Jackson Games My DreamWidth [Just GURPS News] |
07-20-2023, 03:00 AM | #9 | |
Join Date: Jan 2008
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
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Basically, if you're strong enough to shove someone, you're strong enough to penetrate any armor they could reasonably be wearing, especially if you choose a swing weapon. Also DFRPG doesn't come with rules for shoving someone sideways into the Pit of Death instead of directly away. It should be harder, maybe infeasible, unless you're much stronger than they are. That doesn't mean shoving people into the Pit of Death has to be infeasible but probably not while you're standing on a narrow ledge where one step to either side is death. |
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07-20-2023, 03:57 AM | #10 | |||
Wielder of Smart Pants
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Ventura CA
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Re: Dungeon Fantasy Grappling
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Last edited by sir_pudding; 07-20-2023 at 05:17 AM. |
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