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Old 02-05-2023, 11:22 PM   #21
Polydamas
 
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

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Originally Posted by PTTG View Post
Now, if you're looking at a specific real region, the problem is that there actually is too much ground to cover. 'Medieval' covers 3/4ths of the planet for about a thousand years. I would take a look at Wikipedia if you have a specific city in mind.
Also, concepts of property in land vary widely (eg. a lot of people in the UK lease the land that their homes are on on a long-term basis; there are often limits on who can own land; and in quite a few places, owning land does not give you rights to minerals underneath). The setup in England where the nobility claimed to own most of the land by right of conquest was unusual even within medieval western Europe. You can kind of do a generic and universal ballpark for construction costs by basing them on labour, but its hard to do the same for land because its not like for like. Which is why I suggest basing it on local cost of living and handwaving the details except as they are relevant to adventures or involve interaction with interesting NPCs. In a place like Paris or Venice, the cost of living will drive up the value of land but also the cost of labour, materials, etc.
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Old 02-06-2023, 09:19 AM   #22
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

Re Real Estate...

IIRC the Crown Estate (which has been in the news in England a bit lately) has a majority of its 'value' as real estate assets. Mainly urban real estate, primarily in Central London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Estate

As to the value of real estate in a fantasy setting...

There are guidelines but not anything more specific than that I am aware of.
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Old 02-06-2023, 02:02 PM   #23
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

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Originally Posted by cupbearer View Post
Lets assume a charter city.
The most fitting example would be Reinasseance Italy where the mix of available banking and noble family ownership would make easier to apply the concept of "Real estate".

And it's back to "It depends" houses were not bought in that time, land was and then you would built above it. Changing of ownership is because there is a different political climate in the City (guephs vs gibellines, reform and counterreform) and/or someone either needs a lot of Cash pronto or have to raise his influence.

Point is that there is not a "real estate base value" to haggle for, every property has a value and a story of its own. Maybe you can buy a nice place for a bag of florins because the family owning it has to flee from the signoria or you may find yourself in the middle of the street because the Pope has just excommunicated you.

Real estate by itself is a pretty recent scam.
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Old 02-07-2023, 01:10 AM   #24
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

FWIW, GURPS 3E Middle Ages 1 suggests that income from an acre of a medieval manor should be ~$2/mo.

Multiply that by 20x to get standardized GURPS 4E $ costs, so $40/mo.

Assuming that's $480/yr. and that a typical purchase price is 7 years income from the land, that would be $3360/acre for sale or long-term lease.

Assume that land within a city or town is more valuable by a factor of anywhere from 2x to 1000x. Use the rules for item Quality to figure comparative values for land within a given location; lots in undesirable parts of town are Cheap-Quality and lots in more desirable areas as Fine- or Very Fine-Quality.

There's another list of English medieval prices here. It suggests that the low end price for a merchant's house is 33 Pounds. That works out to 33 x 20 shillings x 12 pence = 7920 pence. Assuming that a silver penny is worth $4 (per GURPS Basic, p. B515), that gives a price of $31680. If you take the price of the lot to be at least same as the price of the house, that's a starting point for values of unimproved land.

Conveniently, the price of the house (hence, possibly the land) is ~10x the price for an acre of typical farmland, which might imply a ~40x markup for 0.25-acre lots in a town or city.
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Old 02-08-2023, 09:36 AM   #25
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

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Originally Posted by Opellulo View Post
The most fitting example would be Reinasseance Italy where the mix of available banking and noble family ownership would make easier to apply the concept of "Real estate".

And it's back to "It depends" houses were not bought in that time, land was and then you would built above it. Changing of ownership is because there is a different political climate in the City (guephs vs gibellines, reform and counterreform) and/or someone either needs a lot of Cash pronto or have to raise his influence.

Point is that there is not a "real estate base value" to haggle for, every property has a value and a story of its own. Maybe you can buy a nice place for a bag of florins because the family owning it has to flee from the signoria or you may find yourself in the middle of the street because the Pope has just excommunicated you.

Real estate by itself is a pretty recent scam.
Lol i see ok thx
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Old 02-08-2023, 09:37 AM   #26
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pursuivant View Post
FWIW, GURPS 3E Middle Ages 1 suggests that income from an acre of a medieval manor should be ~$2/mo.

Multiply that by 20x to get standardized GURPS 4E $ costs, so $40/mo.

Assuming that's $480/yr. and that a typical purchase price is 7 years income from the land, that would be $3360/acre for sale or long-term lease.

Assume that land within a city or town is more valuable by a factor of anywhere from 2x to 1000x. Use the rules for item Quality to figure comparative values for land within a given location; lots in undesirable parts of town are Cheap-Quality and lots in more desirable areas as Fine- or Very Fine-Quality.

There's another list of English medieval prices here. It suggests that the low end price for a merchant's house is 33 Pounds. That works out to 33 x 20 shillings x 12 pence = 7920 pence. Assuming that a silver penny is worth $4 (per GURPS Basic, p. B515), that gives a price of $31680. If you take the price of the lot to be at least same as the price of the house, that's a starting point for values of unimproved land.

Conveniently, the price of the house (hence, possibly the land) is ~10x the price for an acre of typical farmland, which might imply a ~40x markup for 0.25-acre lots in a town or city.
Wow that is an awesome answer, thx!
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Old 02-08-2023, 09:38 AM   #27
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

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Originally Posted by Polydamas View Post
Also, concepts of property in land vary widely (eg. a lot of people in the UK lease the land that their homes are on on a long-term basis; there are often limits on who can own land; and in quite a few places, owning land does not give you rights to minerals underneath). The setup in England where the nobility claimed to own most of the land by right of conquest was unusual even within medieval western Europe. You can kind of do a generic and universal ballpark for construction costs by basing them on labour, but its hard to do the same for land because its not like for like. Which is why I suggest basing it on local cost of living and handwaving the details except as they are relevant to adventures or involve interaction with interesting NPCs. In a place like Paris or Venice, the cost of living will drive up the value of land but also the cost of labour, materials, etc.
Interesting thanks
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Old 02-08-2023, 09:38 AM   #28
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

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Originally Posted by Witchking View Post
Re Real Estate...

IIRC the Crown Estate (which has been in the news in England a bit lately) has a majority of its 'value' as real estate assets. Mainly urban real estate, primarily in Central London.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crown_Estate

As to the value of real estate in a fantasy setting...

There are guidelines but not anything more specific than that I am aware of.
Hmmmm. Real life is complicated
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Old 02-08-2023, 10:51 AM   #29
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

As a practical issue, real estate is fundamentally an investment: you pay up front with the expectation that you will make up your money at some point, either in not paying rent (if you live there) or rent (if you don't). As such, the fair cost is your expected savings times the repayment period.

The medieval period was not a period notable for rapid economic growth and investment opportunities, so I expect repayment periods were fairly long. The other big question is actual expected savings, since as a landholder you're on the hook for taxes and other expenses that would be your landlord's problem if you were renting. That's going to be extremely variable by location.
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Old 02-08-2023, 01:28 PM   #30
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Default Re: Medieval real estate?

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Originally Posted by cupbearer View Post
hi

so i see in low tech companion 3, a way to price out houses, which is fricken awesome, but as a person who lives near a major city, I assume that real estate can be a bigger proportion of the cost of buying a place than the actual building cost.
I wrote a blog post on this after researching the matter.
https://batintheattic.blogspot.com/2...n-fantasy.html

Basically the value of the property is the value that the owner paid for it including construction costs. Basically, it wrapped up in the medieval ideas around what is a just price. While Just Price has its nuances and varies throughout the medieval era. For the purpose of gaming is the rule is that the cost of the property is it's "just price" and thus it's sale value. To try to sell it for more carries with it a lot of social stigma and may be even a crime during certain time periods and jurisdiction.

The problem with buying over building is availability. You are often better off trying to build on a vacant lot or land than trying to buy and existing property that not only housing but a source of income for the owner.

Again this is a simplification but something that modern gamers can wrap their heads around that reflects medieval sentiments.
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