Steve Jackson Games - Site Navigation
Home General Info Follow Us Search Illuminator Store Forums What's New Other Games Ogre GURPS Munchkin Our Games: Home

Go Back   Steve Jackson Games Forums > Roleplaying > GURPS

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2018, 06:24 AM   #11
Agemegos
 
Agemegos's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Oz
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Should there be a bunch of taboo traits such as "Lecherous", reflecting protectors' fundamental change of motivations?
__________________

Decay is inherent in all composite things.
Nod head. Get treat.
Agemegos is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 06:40 AM   #12
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
I think IQ+10 is much too high, for a couple of reasons. First, it doesn't leave any room for variation - practically all human-derived Protectors will be identical intelligence levels, sitting at 20.
Why would they be capped at 20, like some sort of lesser breeder human? 20 isn't a cap for all species everywhere, it's a cap for humans specifically. Or in this case, human breeders, as protectors have a separate racial template. Typically racial maximums are adjusted by the same numbers as the racial template (at least for non-ST attributes) but racial maximums (and minimums) are 0 point taboo traits that go on the template.

(Human) Protectors might all get their IQ fixed at 20. I actually like this interpretation as it means that particularly smart breeders can approach the genius of protectors, even those protectors based on exceptional breeders. But if you prefer individual protectors to have variations in IQ, rather than interpreting it as they all get upgraded to homonid maximum, I don't see anything in the rules to forbid it.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2018, 07:06 AM   #13
ericthered
Hero of Democracy
 
ericthered's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: far from the ocean
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

I think pak are one of those cases where IQ 20 actually makes sense. They're very very good at manipulating humans, genius inventors, can pick up and understand complex tasks without study... All of the insane things that we complain about in IQ 20 actually makes sense for them.



Yes, protectors are very very ridiculous and broken. Single individuals are capable of changing the fates of worlds.
__________________
Be helpful, not pedantic

Worlds Beyond Earth -- my blog

Check out the PbP forum! If you don't see a game you'd like, ask me about making one!
ericthered is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2018, 01:13 AM   #14
Dalillama
 
Dalillama's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly Pedersen View Post
The stats are really going to depend on where, exactly, you draw the Protectors from Niven's continuity. They got steadily more impressive over time. There's quite a gap between Jack Brennan, who's smarter than most humans, but capable of error (for example, failing to think of the Pak colonizing fleet), and Louis Wu, literally incapable of comprehending his own thought processes once he gets "reset" back to baseline humans

I prefer the earlier versions of the Protectors, where they're not invincible, impossible-to-outthink demigods, so my comments will be geared along those lines.
I'm mostly thinking of Brennan and Pthssspok as my models here.

Quote:
I think IQ+10 is much too high, for a couple of reasons. First, it doesn't leave any room for variation - practically all human-derived Protectors will be identical intelligence levels, sitting at 20. I feel there should be some room for differences in Protector intelligence, whether from starting from an inherently higher-intelligence baseline, or long experience. Second, high IQ on its own doesn't really do much of what the Protectors manage to do - I think you need other advantages for that, which I'll cover below.
There is room for variance. Protectors made from Pak/Homo Habilis (and probably Morlocks) are pretty stable at 16, Protectors made from humans range from 20-25 (I figure in GURPS terms Louis Wu probably had a higher starting IQ than Jack Brennan)

Quote:
I'd make the human-baseline Protector IQ boost be something like +5 or +6 - enough to make even an average human into a genius, but leaving room for improvement above it. For a baseline barely sapient breeder, like a Pak, I'd peg the IQ boost at more like +8. That's enough to turn an IQ 6 breeder into something comfortably smarter than a human, but not as intelligent as, say, Brennan post-transformation.
The template is meant to be universal across hominids; a Neanderthal gets the same ST boost as a Homo Sapiens, leaving a higher final ST (Also in Known Space Neanderthals are telepathic, and a Protector version would either be utterly terrifying or notably more chill than average).
ETA: And the IQ boost needs to take a subject from 'clever chimp' to 'supergenius'

Quote:
If you've got it, I'd also strongly recommend the Foresight advantage, from the article "Fortunately, I Saw This Coming" in Pyramid #3/53. It's a generalization of the Gizmo rules, allowing the character to retroactively declare they did something, brought some piece of gear, or otherwise were prepared, and it's one of the best traits I know to describe a cinematically intelligent character, which Protectors definitely qualify for.
Unfortunately not



Quote:
Originally Posted by Agemegos View Post
Should there be a bunch of taboo traits such as "Lecherous", reflecting protectors' fundamental change of motivations?
Sexless should cover that pretty well.

Last edited by Dalillama; 07-28-2018 at 02:38 AM.
Dalillama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 12:38 AM   #15
Johnny1A.2
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by ericthered View Post
I think pak are one of those cases where IQ 20 actually makes sense. They're very very good at manipulating humans, genius inventors, can pick up and understand complex tasks without study... All of the insane things that we complain about in IQ 20 actually makes sense for them.
Yes. Even a baseline Pak Protector was so intelligent that he could, simply by examining the engine of Brennan's ship for an hour or two, reach the point where he could have duplicated it if he had had the necessary raw materials. That's _enormously_ greater than human intelligence.

Of course, that's not as impressive as the magic drive the original Pak used to come to the Solar System in the first place...
__________________
HMS Overflow-For conversations off topic here.
Johnny1A.2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 05:03 AM   #16
jeff_wilson
Computer Scientist
 
jeff_wilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Yes. Even a baseline Pak Protector was so intelligent that he could, simply by examining the engine of Brennan's ship for an hour or two, reach the point where he could have duplicated it if he had had the necessary raw materials. That's _enormously_ greater than human intelligence.

Of course, that's not as impressive as the magic drive the original Pak used to come to the Solar System in the first place...
My reading was that Phsthpok arrived in a ramship which is still a fusion driven ship but with a ramscoop to gather fuel (now known to be feasible). The gravity polarizer is magical, but specifically only works down gravity wells rather than between systems.

I have to take issue with Rupert, the enlarged finger joints can improve dexterity as well as strength if the muscle attachment is reversed so that it is like the larger fine adjustment knob on an instrument. There can still be a tradeoff for speed, but we have to think of the setting's fiat that people become more graceful and visibly less clumsy after a century or two under boosterspice; Pak presumably are the end result of the process where they always move right the first time with the best possible precision.
__________________
.
Reposed playtest leader.

The Campaigns of William Stoddard
jeff_wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 05:05 AM   #17
jeff_wilson
Computer Scientist
 
jeff_wilson's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Dallas, Texas
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalillama View Post
I'm mostly thinking of Brennan and Pthssspok as my models here.

Sexless should cover that pretty well.
I could see a Protector as the ultimate creepy stalker / alien kidnapper in order to procure mates for its breeders.
EDIT TO ADD: That is in Re Agamegos, a sexless protector might still be interested in pursuing suitable mates for its breeder troop.
__________________
.
Reposed playtest leader.

The Campaigns of William Stoddard

Last edited by jeff_wilson; 08-06-2018 at 08:54 AM.
jeff_wilson is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 10:36 AM   #18
Fred Brackin
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by jeff_wilson View Post
My reading was that Phsthpok arrived in a ramship which is still a fusion driven ship but with a ramscoop to gather fuel (now known to be feasible). The gravity polarizer is magical, but specifically only works down gravity wells rather than between systems.
Nope. In the specific story that describes Human contact with the Kzinti (possibly _The Warriors_) and generally as that is discussed elsewhere Humans and Kzin met in deep space and Humans weere still using a reaction drive with a dangerous exhaust and the Kzinti weren't. That's how Humans were able to teach them "The Kzinti Lesson" as it was refered to later.

Anyway, my memory of the story is that the Kzinti were using a "gravity polarizer" (which they may have stolen from the Kdatlyno). There ship was able to maneuver to rendevous in deep space with the Human STL ship.
__________________
Fred Brackin
Fred Brackin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 12:35 PM   #19
Bruno
 
Bruno's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Canada
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Kzinti STL flight was the gravity polarizer, which they were given by the 5-armed herbivores the Jotok. The Jotok made the deep tactical error of hiring stone age Kzinti to be their mercenary warriors in exchange for technological uplift. They promptly exterminated the mainstream Kzinti culture, which had at least achieved powered flight.

The Kzinti warriors turned on their employers when they discovered they were leaf eaters. Jotok imprint like ducklings, and the Kzinti domesticated them as engineers and food animals. There's a reason why Kzinti technology doesn't advance quickly - they're not very creative, and they tend to eat other races.

Anyways, this is why the Kzinti didn't recognize the Torch drive - they literally went from spears to the gravity polarizer, and then stagnated there.

As much as the Kzinti are poster children for hidebound and impulsive, they aren't totally stupid. Possibly a little stupid though.
__________________
All about Size Modifier; Unified Hit Location Table
A Wiki for my F2F Group
A neglected GURPS blog
Bruno is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-06-2018, 12:46 PM   #20
Kelly Pedersen
 
Kelly Pedersen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Saskatoon, SK, Canada
Default Re: Pak Protecters in GURPS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2 View Post
Yes. Even a baseline Pak Protector was so intelligent that he could, simply by examining the engine of Brennan's ship for an hour or two, reach the point where he could have duplicated it if he had had the necessary raw materials.
I don't think that feat is necessarily explained by high overall IQ, though. Pthssspok wasn't "baseline" when it came to starship engine maintenance. They were not only involved in the construction of their own ship in the first place, but they had also controlled the ship's drive manually through their entire voyage, at least using far less automation than a human would be comfortable with. Pthssspok's point levels in Mechanic (Fusion Drive) must have been enormous, simply from on-the-job training! And even if they didn't have any levels at all in Engineer (Fusion Drive), their default from Mechanic would have still have been quite good.

To judge Pthssspok's overall IQ, you also have to look at where, and how, he failed. And Pthssspok makes a couple notable errors in IQ-based skills that suggest, to me, that their IQ can't be absurdly high. First, of course, is the fact that they clearly rolled more poorly than Brennan did on Psychology, to work out the probable human reaction to Tree of Life, allowing Brennan to get the drop on Pthssspok. In fact, Brennan speculated that Pthssspok still thought Brennan was just behaving like a "normal" Protector, killing a competitor to ensure his own bloodline's monopoly on the transformation.

Second, though, and much more hugely, is Pthssspok's flub of a roll in the first place, putting Brennan into his cargo hold with inadequately secured Tree of Life. Pthssspok looked at Brennan and, knowing what an untransformed breeder looked like, decided that Brennan wasn't related, to the point where they were surprised that Brennan had eaten the root and undergone the change. That, to me, is a major failure, if not a critical failure, on Biology, or Physiology, or something. I doubt very much that anyone trained in even TL 8 levels of those skills, when presented with an example of Homo sapiens next to one of Homo habilis, wouldn't instantly conclude they were closely related. Pthssspok doesn't even have the excuse of living in a universe where "parallel evolution" turns up humanoids on every world, because Niven was always pretty careful about having aliens be alien in Known Space, with very clearly different body plans.

So, my feeling is that Pthssspok must have been rolling their Biology or Physiology at default there, and must have had an effective skill level lower than 10, and probably notably lower, for that kind of failure to be probable.


In any case, I'm not arguing that Protectors in general don't have higher IQ than baseline humans. They clearly do. However, I'm arguing that you don't really need to give them IQs at the stratospheric levels that the +10 the template has suggests. Much of their intelligence is better portrayed by giving them other "smart" traits, such as the list I suggested, and assuming that they frequently have a lot of points sunk into skills as well.

That's enormously greater than human intelligence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny1A.2
Of course, that's not as impressive as the magic drive the original Pak used to come to the Solar System in the first place...
Which magic drive was that? The original drive was actually described as quite a bit less effective than Pthssspok's, with the trip taking far longer than Pthssspok's ramjet design allowed. I believe it was described as an ion drive, actually, though a real-world ion drive probably wouldn't produce even the performance they got. Remember, though, that their trip took so long that some of the Protectors actually died of old age, which wasn't thought possible up until then.

Last edited by Kelly Pedersen; 08-06-2018 at 01:16 PM.
Kelly Pedersen is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
aliens, conversion

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Fnords are Off
[IMG] code is Off
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:50 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.