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Old 12-14-2014, 07:50 AM   #91
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Rockwolf66 View Post
Plus you have to look at how a knife is used in that society. With the Japanese they use a knife primarily as a thrusting/stabbing weapon. If you watch videos on Tantojitsu you will see lots of stabbing and very little slashing.
Good point, but it's a trap that LOTS of martial arts styles fall into (incidentally, FMAs are guilty here as well). You train to attack a certain way, so your defenses focus on how to defend that body of attacks. That's why it's really good to train with other style practitioners. The further their body of attacks are from what you are used to, the better the training.

That's one of the reasons I really like having my non-martial-artist friends help me with knife training. They aren't going to attack in patterns and from angles that I am used to, and their reactions to my defenses won't be the same as what I normally experience in class.

Quote:
I posted the first in a series of Jujitsu drills as it seemed closest to some of the possible scenarios that people were talking about. Now do the techniques work. Yes they do and they have kept a knife out of my guts. Do I ever want to have to use them again outside of a dojo. Not in 1,000,000 years. If I ever have to deal with someone looking to stick a knife in me I would much rather deal with them using a .300 Winmag sniper rifle at 1,000m.
Emphasis mine. You, sir, win the thread!
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Old 12-14-2014, 08:17 AM   #92
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by BraselC5048 View Post
Why is everybody assuming Judo is the best option? <snip>
Toptomcat already addressed most of this, but I want to add a couple of things here.

Quote:
Disarming is a risky option, you'll still only be rolling against 11 to hit.
But is it? We are working off the assumption of Skill-18, right? If you spend the 3 points on improving the Disarming technique under Judo (or Karate), then you'll disarm at skill 18 (20 - 2 for disarming with a non-fencing weapon*).

So you don't have to wait to defend against the knife attack like you do you with the Arm Lock solution.

You attack to disarm, dumping 4 points into Deceptive attack. That gives you a 90% to hit.

The skill-12 knife guy parries at effective skill 6 (base parry is 9, knife parries are at -1, -2 from DA). That gives him about a 9% chance to successfully parry. If he retreats (and he should), then his parry is at 7 (16% chance).

After that, it's a QC of Knife-12 vs. Judo/Karate Disarming-20. Not sure how to calculate the odds on that, but I bet it is VERY much in favor of the unarmed guy.

This approach allows the Judo/Karate guy to initiate the attack, only have to deal with a single knife parry at a relatively low chance of being hit, AND leverage his superior skill to force the disarm.

The best part about this approach is that it is just as effective when performed by someone with ST 10 as it is when performed by someone with ST 16.

*Note: I can't find anywhere in the Basic Set or Martial Arts that states that Judo/Karate can be treated as fencing weapons for the purposes of Disarming, so I'm guessing they still get the -2. Can anyone correct me on that?
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Old 12-14-2014, 08:56 AM   #93
TheOneRonin
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Gold & Appel Inc View Post
Didn't read the thread; sorry. RL Example: the one time a guy tried to stab me, I did an AoA (Determined) grapple on his knife arm, and then used that for leverage to knock him around and do grappled-Parries until I got him to drop it. I chose it because he was totally not expecting it and it seemed like the best idea at the time. The police pulled me off of him way too soon after that.
That sounds like a really scary situation, but one that you managed without getting cut/stabbed.

I tip my hat to your victory, and I hope you got some good licks in before the cops pulled you off.
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Old 12-14-2014, 10:23 AM   #94
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Two effectively consecutive - K acts, U waits (i.e. does nothing yet), K acts again, U acts for the Wait, K rolls feint resistance, U acts again.
This seems a bit off here.

T = 1: K acts, U declares wait.

T = 2: K acts again, triggers U's wait (Feint, K rolls resistance), K, not being dead, completes his turn in any way allowed. This includes facing changes. U takes his turn, with the benefit of successful feints but likely not attacking into K's side hex anymore.

The only real way to get two "effective" combat actions in a row tends to be some sort of aggressive move on a Parry, followed by an action on your own turn. Aggressive Parry, Judo Parry, Grabbing Parry (TG), Escaping Parry (TG). All of those are subsumed into a parry and/or make a next-turn action even cooler.

Wait interrupts, not invalidates, a turn.
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Old 12-14-2014, 10:27 AM   #95
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by TheOneRonin View Post

But is it? We are working off the assumption of Skill-18, right? If you spend the 3 points on improving the Disarming technique under Judo (or Karate),
[/I]
Go with Brawling and Skill-18 costs 8 fewer pts (unless Dex is fantastically high). Then you can max out your Disarm and still save some pts over Judo or Karate.
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Old 12-14-2014, 11:03 AM   #96
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
This seems a bit off here.

T = 1: K acts, U declares wait.

T = 2: K acts again, triggers U's wait (Feint, K rolls resistance), K, not being dead, completes his turn in any way allowed. This includes facing changes. U takes his turn, with the benefit of successful feints but likely not attacking into K's side hex anymore.

The only real way to get two "effective" combat actions in a row tends to be some sort of aggressive move on a Parry, followed by an action on your own turn. Aggressive Parry, Judo Parry, Grabbing Parry (TG), Escaping Parry (TG). All of those are subsumed into a parry and/or make a next-turn action even cooler.

Wait interrupts, not invalidates, a turn.
I think the theory is the wait triggers after K's move portion of his action and before K's attack portion, So while he could have a facing change after his step forward he won't because there is no need to do so* (at that point he's facing U square on). And that will be K's last chance to change facing before the wait -feint/step, defence/slip, CA double step/grapple goes off in his rear hex and he's being choked from behind (or what ever)


As I said it a nasty combination that IMO is a bit abusive of the order of movement in action, especially as the underpinning theory of all this is it's all going at the same time.

Especially as the only action K can take is an attack that is against an opponent he's no longer facing!

If this became a thing I'd consider allowing the facing change to be made at any time in the action but as I said earlier this might make other positioning tactics a bit hard.

*and what ever direction K changes his facing in U just goes the other way round and has less hexes to to move through to get to the rear one.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-14-2014 at 12:17 PM.
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Old 12-14-2014, 11:14 AM   #97
vicky_molokh
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
This seems a bit off here.
Now that I look more at it, the whole idea of stringing two turns in a row is indeed off.

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Originally Posted by DouglasCole View Post
K, not being dead, completes his turn in any way allowed. This includes facing changes. U takes his turn, with the benefit of successful feints but likely not attacking into K's side hex anymore.
This is an interesting note:
AFAIK facing changes are done as part of a Step. And I thought you generally agreed that the Wait-Feint-Step-Step was a legit tactic between the blogs of you and MLangsdorf?


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Wait interrupts, not invalidates, a turn.
No argument there.
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Old 12-14-2014, 11:38 AM   #98
DouglasCole
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Now that I look more at it, the whole idea of stringing two turns in a row is indeed off.

This is an interesting note:
AFAIK facing changes are done as part of a Step. And I thought you generally agreed that the Wait-Feint-Step-Step was a legit tactic between the blogs of you and MLangsdorf?


No argument there.
What I would do as a player in the situation is state that my rotation came after the end of my step, since my step is only over when I declare it so, and in reality the step in the attack or a continuum of motion. I would certainly repay one egregious rules exploit with another!
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Old 12-14-2014, 11:43 AM   #99
Tomsdad
 
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, a success of Shoving People Around gives the right to change either your facing xor the opponent's facing; that seems to indicate it's not allowed to change facing without it. Also, you can't freely Step while grappled, right? If so, you can't Change Facing either.
Yes but that's all with the proviso that a grapple has been established, we're talking about one person standing motionless (apart the ability to attack) while the other runs around and into CC with him.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Two effectively consecutive - K acts, U waits (i.e. does nothing yet), K acts again, U acts for the Wait, K rolls feint resistance, U acts again.
Strictly speaking, neither fighter strings two turn-beginnings together. But de facto both are stringing turn executions together - first K, then U.
Ok in a wider and abstract context maybe. But in reality K's step and attack is the point that contact is initiated, in this exchange

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
That's somewhat perverse, in that it means that nobody ever feints a kick or knee strike or whatever in CC, because feinting with a punch (or, worse, an improved Arm Lock) will be always better.
Well not always better you might have brought kick up to base level, maybe you don't have a ready weapon other than your legs. That kick could be potentially more damage to the target (see the various things discussed earlier about kicking or stamping on probably less armoured legs and joints.

A boxer or sumo wrestler who has problems defending against kicks will be wary of them.

And what you say about the arm lock is only true because you improved it, the reverse would be true if you brought kick up and neglected arm lock.

Quote:
Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Hmm. I'd actually consider allowing people to pretend that they're about to do an AoA(L). That sounds plausible. It's also a good way to make an opponent 'waste' a reaction on it fluff-wise (but de jure, it's just a reduced AD in case of a successful Feint).
Only they get the benefit (feint at extra reach) with no trade off. Every feint will be that and will start an extra reach away.

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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
People say Feint doesn't get enough love in combats unless it's an improved Technique and/or used against an inferior-skill opponent. Maybe this would make them more popular.
IME feint doesn't need any help, certainly not when your stringing it together like this.


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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Also, interestingly, Evaluate only works within a range at which it is possible to strike an opponent with a Move and Attack.
True, not sure of the relevance here though, sorry?


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Originally Posted by vicky_molokh View Post
Well, two CAs in a row still provide less movement than an M&A, and slightly more than AoA with a Move 5 character.
Yes, but they get an extra attack, and don't have the accuracy issue of a M&A, or as much of the defence issue as an AoA, both of which makes sense because both of which sacrifice that for speed. But of course you have to use a wait to access the two in row without interruptions.

Last edited by Tomsdad; 12-14-2014 at 12:36 PM.
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Old 12-14-2014, 12:00 PM   #100
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Default Re: Unarmed vs. Knife

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yes but that's all with the proviso that a grapple has been established, we're talking about one person standing motionless (apart the ability to attack) while the other runs around and into CC with him.
True, the assumption is that after all the tricks, the grapple is successful.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Well not always better you might have brought kick up to base level, maybe you don't have a ready weapon other than your legs. That kick could be potentially more damage to the target (see the various things discussed earlier about kicking or stamping on probably less armoured legs and joints.

A boxer or sumo wrestler who has problems defending against kicks will be wary of them.

And what you say about the arm lock is only true because you improved it, the reverse would be true if you brought kick up and neglected arm lock.

Only they get the benefit (feint at extra reach) with no trade off. Every feint will be that and will start an extra reach away.
I'm divided here. On one hand, free lunches are bad. On the other, stacking Feint with the technique level of specific attacks seems too fiddly. Maybe just allow Feints to work at -1 per hex beyond reach, up to +Move hexes away (past which striking in one turn is not plausible)? Anyway, this is totally into houserule territory.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
IME feint doesn't need any help, certainly not when your stringing it together like this.
OK. I didn't see too many Feints back when mêlée combat was common. Experiences differ, and I don't claim mine is righter.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
True, not sure of the relevance here though, sorry?
Mostly the analogy - both are preparative actions; also, Feint doesn't necessarily represent lowercase feints (fake attacks) - 'Feints aren’t always phony attacks. They include breaks in rhythm, false steps, head fakes, and other ploys to misdirect the foe.'.

Again, this gets pretty far into redesign of rules anyway.

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Originally Posted by Tomsdad View Post
Yes, but they get an extra attack, and don't have the accuracy issue of a M&A, or as much of the defence issue as an AoA, both ow which makes sense because both of which sacrifice that for speed. But of course you have to use a wait to access the two in row without interruptions.
Tradeoffs, tradeoffs, conditions.
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