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Old 12-05-2024, 01:21 PM   #11
Icelander
 
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Default Real World and Mercenaries

Essentially, the world of my setting in 1990-1991 is the real world, at least superficially, because subtle supernatural intrusions haven't affected history much yet.

So, we're recruiting and setting up a mercenary group in the context of the real world. The context within which it would actually be used as mercenaries, as opposed to the actually-existing profession of Private Military Contractors, is when that real world starts to be in danger of becoming something else, because of emerging supernatural elements.

The people paying are aware of the supernatural elements and making plans to avert catastrophe, as best they can guess and interpret. The mercenaries are not aware that their work will eventually be to support and ultimately perhaps be deployed as the Quick Reaction Force to come to the rescue of people who hunt supernatural monsters or stop events which would tear a hole in reality, and, ideally, help prevent reality from unraveling. The supernatural elements, are, yes, largely excuses to justify PCs doing things that would not make sense to do in the real world, because there are more sensible and less fun ways address real-world issues.

Supernatural problems can require solutions that no sane man would propose in a world without them. Thus, enter PCs.
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Old 12-05-2024, 02:42 PM   #12
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

The SKS rifles were going for $69 retail in the US around your time frame. Ammo for same wasn't much more expensive then 22LR, a cent or two per round. Can only imagine how cheap they were in shipping container lots. While not that useful for fully trained elite troops, they would be useful for training up raw recruits or equipping a local support cadre. Starting with taking one apart to get all the damned cosmoline out of places it shouldn't be when shooting. The cheap ammo costs means you don't have to conserve training rounds. Those that prove worthy can be issued better more expensive weapons.

Lots of pistols that chambered 9x18 rounds. Some small enough to be useful as a concealed weapon. One model had a US model # of PA-63. Hungarian made.

As for clothing, pick the Eastern Bloc uniform you like the best and assume that it was available. For that matter, a fair amount of US clothing/uniforms were coming on the market. Used NATO theater plus stuff from the recently concluded Desert Storm. Very likely that a fair amount of 'out of normal channels' equipment could be obtained from the Iraqi theater.

As odd as it sounds, used CB radios were cheap in the time frame. The craze was over and lot of folks were removing CB from cars. Same for CB walkie-talkies. Not the 100mw kids toys, the 4w adult ones. Range good for a few miles. Not encrypted. Useful for a covert op, probably not. Useful for general use and as a mis-direction, yes.
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Old 12-05-2024, 04:28 PM   #13
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Which is why Executive Outcomes used FLIR-equipped Pilatus PC-7 (I was wrong about which of their aircraft did which, they equipped the PC-7 with rockets and another with radio relays and GPS system to act as an aerial forward observer for artillery and air) Beechcraft King Air aircraft from the start. Texas Instruments were making modules that fit a lot of aircraft from the 1970s and by the early 1990s, other companies, less hesitant than they were about signing deals, were selling to all sorts of Western-aligned nations. Some of the US firms sold to British ones (and were later acquired by them, though that was slightly later in the 1990s) and French and Israeli companies had competing approaches to Texas Instruments by the 1990s.


I should have been more clear, i was talking about man portable thermals, either the tripod mounts or the head mounted units :3

For machineguns the PKM,the 1919 or the MG3 or 42/56 would all be around, in africa you will also see G3s,FALs and ofc LOTS of AKs

For armor just pick up PASGT Helmets or one of their deratives together with the vests and plates, Lots of Ceradyne stuff around to.
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Old 12-05-2024, 04:48 PM   #14
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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Originally Posted by DeadParrot View Post
The SKS rifles were going for $69 retail in the US around your time frame. Ammo for same wasn't much more expensive then 22LR, a cent or two per round. Can only imagine how cheap they were in shipping container lots. While not that useful for fully trained elite troops, they would be useful for training up raw recruits or equipping a local support cadre. Starting with taking one apart to get all the damned cosmoline out of places it shouldn't be when shooting. The cheap ammo costs means you don't have to conserve training rounds. Those that prove worthy can be issued better more expensive weapons.
Only a quirk of US laws means that the SKS rifles were cheaper than AKM rifles. It wasn't legal to import the millions of surplus AKM rifles the Soviets had warehoused to sell on the US commercial market. If it had been, anyone who wanted one could have had an AKM for barely a little more than just the transport and import fees.

If you're buying for a government (which a Private Military Contractor with a contract to train government troops is doing), you can buy actually new AKMs $5/pcs at the time. Gently-used ones, only dropped once, were free to anyone willing to pick them up.

We will assume that any PMC set up at the time and place Executive Outcomes was can have as many AKMs as they wish, essentially. Executive Outcomes was, in fact, only three years later, offered about ten thousand Type 56 (Chinese AK-pattern rifles) for, essentially, just the work it would take to offload from a ship at Soyo harbour and assume responsibility for the paperwork. They said no, because, and I quote 'Angola is awash in AKs'. They just regarded the rifles as part of the usual human debris. You know, instead of cigarette butts and beer cans, it's AKs.

If you want to specify a rarer brand, model or configuration of your AK-pattern rifle, you'll have to expend some more effort. Like, if you want ones which can mount the newer grenade launchers or if you want compact ones for pilots. Same for RPK and RPK-74, or the even older RPD light machine guns, you might have to spend a little more time finding the right warehouse guy to bribe, but if you want a thousand, it's not really that much more expensive than a hundred.

The Soviet Union literally had so many millions of surplus arms that they were wasting money by storing, but they'd never really analyzed the cost, because bureaucrats rarely do math which shows that the government needs to pay fewer bureaucrats. And when their economy crumbled and they weren't even the Soviet Union any more, well, there were a lot of Russians, Kazaks, Ukrainians and other Slavic guys who didn't have a paycheck at the end of the month, no hope of any income, but their job (which no one had fired them from, because the Soviet Army just stopped paying, and it took time to figure out what would replace it and if they could afford even a fraction of their current manpower) happened to allow them access to vast stores of weapons, ordnance, vehicles, even fuel, rations and uniforms were sold on the black market.

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Lots of pistols that chambered 9x18 rounds. Some small enough to be useful as a concealed weapon. One model had a US model # of PA-63. Hungarian made.
The original Soviet-made PM 'Makarov' is actually remarkably compact and easy to wear, though somewhat heavy for such a small pistol. The Czech vz. 82 is even heavier, but well-made, as are almost all Czech-made firearms.

For former SOF operators, from African countries as well as Warsaw Pact ones (and the PC group, with some Western ones), there will be CZ 75 (pre-B), 9x19mm model pistols, as well as Browning Hi-Power Mark III, 9x19mm ones. Many of the African veterans, especially Rhodesian/Zimbabwean and South African, will be familiar with carrying and using a Browning and anyone looking to find a new favourite pistol could do a lot worse than a CZ 75.

There will be a few Uzis with an MK9 suppressor, loaded with the 158 grain Sampson FMJ rounds that the Israelis developed for suppressed Uzis. The question is whether those will be the only suppressed weapons or if they should offer a suppressed pistol.

In the 1990-1991 period, Nielsen devices were not yet perfected technology, so suppressing full-power pistols with a Browning-style action was problematic. It was possible, but could make them unreliable. For technical reasons, it is much cleaner to go with a less powerful round and a pistol with a fixed barrel. The less powerful it is, the more skill or luck is needed for it to actually work for its intended purpose, but the easier it is to suppress well. At the upper range of the power that I'd want to entertain would be 9x18mm or .380 ACP, but I'd be happier with .32 ACP and there is a lot to say for .22 LR.

Something to consider, certainly, but probably not relevant for military purposes. PCs can be relied upon to do something unorthodox, however.

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As for clothing, pick the Eastern Bloc uniform you like the best and assume that it was available. For that matter, a fair amount of US clothing/uniforms were coming on the market. Used NATO theater plus stuff from the recently concluded Desert Storm. Very likely that a fair amount of 'out of normal channels' equipment could be obtained from the Iraqi theater.
What's good camouflage anywhere from brown, dry veldt, to sand-covered rocks and the Kalahari desert, through brush to woodland, and then genuine jungle? Just good old khaki?

We don't really need to skimp here, as looking sharp and feeling comfortable in their uniforms helps morale. So, maybe something with berets, but what kind?

And what camouflage pattern?

I am actually tempted to go with khaki shirts and trousers. Best look would be khaki shorts and short-sleeved khaki shirts, but jungle, brush and many types of vegetation are hellish to go through without protection for your limbs. If anything, knee and elbow pads make more sense.

Ooh, sporty charcoal grey, brown and dark green camouflage clothing, either some kind of breathable fabrics, Nomex or both, with knee and elbow pads, as well as climbing helmets and NVDs, for armoured vehicle or helicopter assault or rescue missions. Wicking undergarments.

For long-term travel through jungle or something like it, the Portuguese m63 'lizard' camouflage pattern, but make sure that the uniforms are made of better fabric and fit better than the local troops. And wear a beret, even if you have to make it a camouflaged one.

Khaki shorts and short-sleeved shirt with a blue beret for their ordinary base wear.

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As odd as it sounds, used CB radios were cheap in the time frame. The craze was over and lot of folks were removing CB from cars. Same for CB walkie-talkies. Not the 100mw kids toys, the 4w adult ones. Range good for a few miles. Not encrypted. Useful for a covert op, probably not. Useful for general use and as a mis-direction, yes.
That sounds like something they might mount in surplus armoured vehicles that don't come with their own radios.
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Old 12-05-2024, 05:42 PM   #15
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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Originally Posted by Icelander View Post
Both Rhodesian and South African SOF who used Soviet weapons (generally to make it easier to infiltrate insurgent-controlled areas) would often carry more machine guns and grenade launchers than they carried just ordinary rifles.
If you do patrol type operations then "instant firepower" on contact is very important.


Quote:
Not only are PKM excellent general-purpose machine guns, but RPDs are pretty good light machine guns. The RPK is merely a stouter AK, not really a proper machine gun, so its adoption among Soviet-supplied countries was, if anything, a step back, but South African 32 Battalion still made heavy use of the original RPD into the 1990s.
I think the continues use of RPD might have had a lot to do with difficulty of getting better weapons due to the sanctions.

Quote:
So, communication needs boil down to the following:
(snip)
Who is providing the air support. If own light attack planes/helicopters then you can simplify the problem a bit if you want. The ground/air coordination is possible to arange if you can get hold of enough suitable manpack radios. Basically bolting on a manpack radio to such is not hard. If you have something like fast jets then you have a bit bigger problem.


Quote:

Even if, most of the time, fatigue and dehydration are more likely than being shot, so it would be hard to get a paratrooper, especially one who grew up in Eastern Europe or Siberia, to wear armour under an equatorial sun, but if they ever go on a full-on assault where they don't expect any walking, they might want them.
Also helicopter crews and such will want some protection most likely.
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Old 12-05-2024, 07:05 PM   #16
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

If you are being in 90+ F temperatures, I would recommend summer outfits along with light armor. It is not worth it to even wear armor if you can't get proper plates. At that point, just an SSh-68 to protect against shrapnel and a rig for carrying some equipment is sufficient. I didn't know that the campaign was going to take place in the area it was; the 7.62mm AK guns work much better especially because of how dirt cheap the ammo is.
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Old 12-05-2024, 09:19 PM   #17
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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Sure, but that's not really a thing in the real world any more. And hasn't been true for generations. If you kill employees of Securitas or any of their subsidiaries, not only will the police arrest you, but their corporate lawyers would also sue you.

Many of the people who give training seminars or run courses for police or military in most countries, Iceland not excluded, will bill you on behalf of the company they work for. Journalists with no real-world knowledge often call such people 'mercenaries', but, in reality, they answer to a corporate HR department.
Well yes but the reference was to what people think and I gather you implied that they thought of them as South African condottieri in the Congo Civil Wars which is glamorous sounding employment in a rather nasty sort of way but not much in the public eye (though it would make a great campaign in itself).

On TV when someone is introduced as a merc I usually know it means he is an expendable mook. Not someone with an interesting backstory (one exception was the Antihero in Magnum PI " All For One").

In any case TV thinks of Mercs in a different way than you describe anyway.
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Old 12-06-2024, 02:43 AM   #18
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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If you do patrol type operations then "instant firepower" on contact is very important.
It also worked very well on assaults. Basically, South African bush fighters and Executive Outcomes (men were all South African trained or, ironically, trained by their erstwhile enemies, ANC militant wing MK, SWAPO or MPLA armed forces, FAPLA) would carry lots more vehicle armament than they were technically designed for and expend ammo at prodigious rate. This would often work well enough for even prepared UNITA defensive positions to crumble at first contact, convinced that there were far more enemies than their intelligence had indicated.

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I think the continues use of RPD might have had a lot to do with difficulty of getting better weapons due to the sanctions.
They chose them in preference to RPKs. There were PKMs and FN MAG machine guns in use too, lots of them even, but in multiple personal accounts, former Selous Scouts, 32 Battalion and Koevoet personel state that the RPD was the only light machine gun that was actually light enough to use as a personal weapon and actually a decent machine gun.

It was also often the only captured Soviet weapon used by Rhodesian SAS and the South African Recces, as they liked the FN FAL or the later R4 (Galil) as rifles and the FN MAG as GPMG, but the RPD continued to provide an 'actual light machine gun' role that nothing else did as well.

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Who is providing the air support. If own light attack planes/helicopters then you can simplify the problem a bit if you want. The ground/air coordination is possible to arange if you can get hold of enough suitable manpack radios. Basically bolting on a manpack radio to such is not hard. If you have something like fast jets then you have a bit bigger problem.
They will own some Il-76 strategic lift aircraft, a couple of An-12, An-24 and An-26 transport planes and lots of An-2 aircraft. Some Mi-8/Mi-17 Hip helicopters and Mi-24/Mi-25 Hind helicopter gunships. Maybe one Mi-26 lift helicopter for logistics purposes. If needed, a few light aircraft as well, as well as maybe something with at least the ground attack capability of an armed trainer. Maybe an OV-10 Bronco or something with similar characteristics.

They'd need to be able to work with local Mig-23 in close air support too.

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Also helicopter crews and such will want some protection most likely.
Yes, though former Soviet helicopters would often solve that with steel and Kevlar built around the cockpit. Door gunners may wear full ballistic armour, but only if it will stop the most likely small arms return fire to be accurate, other 7.62x51mm or 7.62x54mmR machine guns. Otherwise, maybe just flack jackets for fragments from AA autocannon.
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Old 12-06-2024, 08:33 AM   #19
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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Well yes but the reference was to what people think and I gather you implied that they thought of them as South African condottieri in the Congo Civil Wars which is glamorous sounding employment in a rather nasty sort of way but not much in the public eye (though it would make a great campaign in itself).
Yeah, that combination of romance and horror is the thing which mostly doesn't exist any more. In the 1960s, anyone who had enough modern education to be literate, able to drive and figure out minimally complex machinery, like a machine gun, was already a better soldier than most Congolese 'soldiers', who were mostly raised en masse by various local elites, with no organization, training or modern weapons. Mercenaries who actually had modern military training performed so much better than the totally disorganized and untrained locals that they made a difference.

Since then, though, African countries aren't going through the literal first year of existence as independent states. As early as 1970s, most African states had soldiers who could drive, read maps, do paperwork and fire their infantry weapons. So, an alcoholic Belgian former paratrooper or a far-right French lunatic who fought in Algeria don't necessarily have anything to offer which the local military can't do for themselves.

Those who hired literal mercenaries, i.e. people who are paid more than they would be in a regular military to just directly fight for some country that isn't theirs, after the 1960s, are usually doing so out of ignorance and may not know the difference between TV and reality. What actual, real governments do, is hire experts and technical specialists that prepare courses, give seminars and just generally train the local military to use the newest technology. It's those experts and technical specialists who form most PMCs and PSCs.

With the caveat that PSCs like Securitas will employ a lot of minimally skilled, unarmed security guards. Most of their jobs are not glamorous and they mostly install security systems, monitor them and sometimes station guards. Most PMC work also involves uglamorous stuff like static base defence and running the cafeteria, with escorting convoys pretty much the closest to combat they get.

PMCs who obey international laws and/or are run from civilized countries just don't offer the service of sending mercenaries to shoot someone. They can legally defend themselves if fired upon. They can't really ambush or attack enemies, not legally, though in the early 1990s, the legal line on how close PMCs could be to their trainees during attacks was blurrier. Nothing really stopped local militaries from integrating skilled planning and logistics officers from a PMC into their divisions, brigades or smaller formations, and thus enhance their performance, through learning how to develop and use modern GPS, overhead imagery, FLIR, aerial radio relay and surveillance (called 'Telstar', after the satellites), etc.

Executive Outcomes could, legally, provide intelligence, air and planning support to 16 Brigade in Angola even during combat, so EO staff definitely were involved offensively in Angola, as there is really no way to drive a BMP-2 alongside a bunch of other BMP-2 infantry fighting vehicles without the other side firing on you, in which case you are legally allowed to defend yourself, even if that means overruning a UNITA defence line and taking their base.

The image of the mercenary as a guy with a gun and personal problems, unable to function in peacetime, actually did describe some people. It's just that such men are no longer valuable to African militaries, who have their own trained guys with guns. In order to be worth paying more than local soldiers get, the foreign PMC has to be composed of experts who will be teaching locals new skills and techniques, which they did not previously have.

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Originally Posted by jason taylor View Post
On TV when someone is introduced as a merc I usually know it means he is an expendable mook. Not someone with an interesting backstpry (one exception was the Antihero in Magnum PI " All For One").

In any case TV thinks of Mercs in a different way than you describe anyway.
I've noticed that a lot of screenwriters are decades behind in their understanding of how the real world works. It's like how you get Irish and Italian mobs fighting for underworld position in 2020s Hell's Kitchen and how there's always some ignorant screenwriter writing 1950s Sicilian-American Cosa Nostra characters in modern TV or movies.

Screenwriters seem stuck on images of organized criminals from the 1950s and mercenaries from the 1960s, ignoring that these had already mostly faded away into irrelevance by the 1970s. I sometimes think screenwriters don't want to do the mental work necessary to update their references, so they just stick with tired tropes and caricature characters.
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Old 12-06-2024, 01:40 PM   #20
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Default Re: [Special Ops/Covert Ops] Equipment for Mercenary Operation in 1990-1991

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Screenwriters seem stuck on images of organized criminals from the 1950s and mercenaries from the 1960s, ignoring that these had already mostly faded away into irrelevance by the 1970s. I sometimes think screenwriters don't want to do the mental work necessary to update their references, so they just stick with tired tropes and caricature characters.
There is more to it than that. They seized on tropes because it had narrative reasons which make them continue to be useful. The Italian mafia works because it had a weird combination of medieval tribalism and feudalism with the modern world-the Corelones basically were no different from Medici. It also works because of the cultish mysticism that in real life is descended from the guild system. Asian crime gangs (which are no doubt similarly accurately depicted) have a similar attraction.

Likewise mercs as throwaway characters has the advantage that you do not have to name the enemy or give him a personality and no one will be offended by having someone they like in real life as the villain (a very great advantage in a time of factional politics).
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