[Basic] Disadvantage of the Week: No Fine Manipulators

[WaterAndWindSpirit]

I've build a Magical Girl who could shapeshift into a big wolf to tear monters to pieces. She also happens to be tough as nails in either form, and she can use her howl to inspire (read: buff) the party, intimidate enemies or draw aggro. Being tough as nails, able to shapeshift and throw status effects while in wolf form is her power. Naturally, in wolf form she has no fine manipulators. Which kind of limits her as her more powerful abilities are tied to her wolf form.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by johndallman

Not having played much GURPS with non-humanoid races, I’ve never seen these disadvantages used. Have they been significant in your games?

Lots of animal PCs in my games, so this shows up a lot. It is a surprisingly fun handicap with the right attitude.

Oddly, in the PonyPlex (My irregular Cyberpunk My Little Pony/Cthulu/Muppets crossover game) the ponies don't have it, since MLP ponies are clearly able to manipulate as well as humans in the source material.

[awesomenessofme1]

NFM/NM is fantastic for building low-cost Shapeshifters. One of the characters I built for the Minor League Supers thread was able to reduce the value of her Alternate Form by 86 points by giving it No Fine Manipulators.

[whswhs]

Originally Posted by martinl

Oddly, in the PonyPlex (My irregular Cyberpunk My Little Pony/Cthulu/Muppets crossover game) the ponies don't have it, since MLP ponies are clearly able to manipulate as well as humans in the source material.

Jonathan Swift says the same about the Houynhnms.

[martinl]

Originally Posted by whswhs

Jonathan Swift says the same about the Houynhnms.

Houynhnms exist to perform a fun yet cutting morality play in equine form, so they are clearly some form of proto-MLP.

Back to the thread topic though - there is definitely literature and movies where things that clearly should have NFM don't, and in any game where that source material is ok the GM could allow PCs like that. Cinematic but fun.

[AlexanderHowl]

No Fine Manipulators/No Manipulators is right up there with Cannot Wear Armor as ways to produce cheap large creatures. For example, a blue whale should possesses ST 110, which would cost 200 CP with the NFP and Size modifiers. It should also possess DR 42 with the CWA, Semi-Ablative, and Flexible modifiers, which would cost 42 CP.

[Dingle]

Has anyone considered breaking down the no fine manipulators limitations on DX and ST into component parts?
How much of a limitation would "cannot use weapons" be for ST? (no swing damage, and would require claws to get better damage types than crushing)

[Pursuivant]

Originally Posted by whswhs

The cost structure is a bit odd. You can take One Arm for -10 points, in effect selling back an arm. But you can't sell back the other arm for -20 points; that gives you No Fine Manipulators, which is -30 points.

Point taken about the hassles of creating a multi-armed creature, but the point costs make sense, since retaining some manipulation ability with One Arm is significantly less of a problem than having No Fine Manipulators. By comparison, consider the point cost differential for One Eye vs. Blindness.

Arguably, the problem comes from the fact that the Ham-Fisted, High Manual Dexterity, and Missing Digit traits aren't integrated into the One Arm, One Hand, NFM, and NM spectrum. Missing Finger + One Hand = -17 points, Missing Thumb + One Hand or One Arm = -20 points. One Hand + Ham-Fisted 1 = -25 points, One Hand + Ham-Fisted 2 = -30 points. Logically, that would make NFM worth -35 or -40 points rather than -30, while NM remains at -50 points.

[WingedKagouti]

Originally Posted by Pursuivant

Arguably, the problem comes from the fact that the Ham-Fisted, High Manual Dexterity, and Missing Digit traits aren't integrated into the One Arm, One Hand, NFM, and NM spectrum. Missing Finger + One Hand = -17 points, Missing Thumb + One Hand or One Arm = -20 points. One Hand + Ham-Fisted 1 = -25 points, One Hand + Ham-Fisted 2 = -30 points. Logically, that would make NFM worth -35 or -40 points rather than -30, while NM remains at -50 points.

As ericthered noted in response to me, a significant part of No Fine Manipulators is the 40% discount to ST & DX which you do not get with One Hand + Ham-Fisted 2.

A character with NFM and ST 20 only pays 30 points for that package while someone with One Hand + Ham-Fisted 2 and ST 20 would pay a total of 70 points.

[ericthered]

Originally Posted by Dingle

Has anyone considered breaking down the no fine manipulators limitations on DX and ST into component parts?
How much of a limitation would "cannot use weapons" be for ST? (no swing damage, and would require claws to get better damage types than crushing)

I'm tempted to do it occasionally, but I've never really thrown out numbers.

breaking off "cannot use weapons" from the general -40%, I'm torn as to how much of it its worth. I suspect the proper number is between -20% and -30%. The rest of the limitation is "cannot use tools", and possibly "cannot manipulate objects". I'm also unsure if the tools part of the limtation could be broken down further, distinguishing acts like turning doorknobs and entering passwords from shoveling dirt and pounding in stakes.